Phosphate creep

[shootingstar_reef]

FWIW, your own reference suggests a downside to high phosphate:

Skeletal density reduction may be due to phosphate binding at the calcifying surface and the creation of a porous and structurally weaker calcium carbonate/calcium phosphate skeleton. Increased phosphate concentrations, often characteristic of eutrophic conditions, caused increased coral growth but also a more brittle skeleton. The latter is likely more susceptible to breakage and damage from other destructive forces (e.g., bioerosion) and makes increased coral growth a poor indicator of reef health.

Right, but that downside isn't something that kills the corals. The more fragile skeletons don't result in lower viability (at least for the duration of that experiment, I suppose)

 

[Lavey29]

Looks like I may have lost an urchin and that might have bumped my phosphate to. I can only find 2 right now and missing number 3. These were Petco steals 1.5 years ago. Maybe he is just in a cave but MIA for 2 days now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right, but that downside isn't something that kills the corals. The more fragile skeletons don't result in lower viability (at least for the duration of that experiment, I suppose)

That depends on whether the weaker skeletons break in the aquarium more often.

 

[Lavey29]

So been running half dose of GFO via the mid size chemipure elite packs. Level was .40 yesterday and I'm at .27 today so moving in the right direction. All my corals seem hugely happy except one nice siz3 blue tort. It has some whitening on one branch and a little in the main stock. I am guessing the elevated phosphate caused this or the swing down with the GFO did it.

You guys think it will color back up or does the condition typically worsen over time now. It is one of my favorite corals and has had great growth prior. I have another smaller cali blue tort that had a branch go white too.

Strangely only my blue acros seem affected by my elevated phosphate levels. All my other SPS showed no negative affects.

 

[Fishy888]

How are things looking these days?

 

[Lavey29]

How are things looking these days?

Its wierd, my phosphate has just settled permanently at about .4. I've tried GFO and phosguard and it drops a little and then the next day back at .4. It's like my tank has found a balance point there. Corals are great, growing huge. Sand has some small patches of brown algae here and there that comes and goes. Not sure if it's some type of dinos or not but it's very minor and not really spreading. Pods and cleaners seem to keep it in check. So it's a perplexing situation. I'd like lower phosphates but I'm not seeing bad side effects yet.

 

[Lavey29]

I'm debating whether to try lanthium chloride but I see pros and cons with it.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Its wierd, my phosphate has just settled permanently at about .4. I've tried GFO and phosguard and it drops a little and then the next day back at .4. It's like my tank has found a balance point there. Corals are great, growing huge. Sand has some small patches of brown algae here and there that comes and goes. Not sure if it's some type of dinos or not but it's very minor and not really spreading. Pods and cleaners seem to keep it in check. So it's a perplexing situation. I'd like lower phosphates but I'm not seeing bad side effects yet.

It's being released from the rocks and substrate.

You just need to keep using GFO or Phosguard. It will take quite a long time to lower down to 0.1

 

[Lavey29]

It's being released from the rocks and substrate.

You just need to keep using GFO or Phosguard. It will take quite a long time to lower down to 0.1

But the tank is 2 years old now and this problem just started last month. My phosphate was always .07 to .14 for over 1.5 years after my tank got through the new stage.

Did the rocks and sand just decide to start leeching again at 2 years? Nothing has changed in my tank for a long time now that would cause a phosphate increase.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did the rocks and sand just decide to start leeching again at 2 years? Nothing has changed in my tank for a long time now that would cause a phosphate increase.

Once it is at 0.4, for whatever reason, it is hard to lower it, no matter how long it took to get there.

Rocks and sand bind phosphate any time you try to raise it, and they release it any time you try to lower it.

in essence, it is a potentially large reservoir that tries to hold phosphate where it is.

 

[Lavey29]

Once it is at 0.4, for whatever reason, it is hard to lower it, no matter how long it took to get there.

Rocks and sand bind phosphate any time you try to raise it, and they release it any time you try to lower it.

in essence, it is a potentially large reservoir that tries to hold phosphate where it is.

Sure seems that way but why now at the 2 year point? Why didn't they bind phosphate from the beginning and set the saturation level early on?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sure seems that way but why now at the 2 year point? Why didn't they bind phosphate from the beginning and set the saturation level early on?

The higher the phosphate, the more binds, and the lower the phosphate, the less binds. It's not a one and done sort of thing. And it never can raise phosphate higher than the water phosphate level that was attained during the binding.

It may have been binding at the beginning, or it may have come in with some, depending on the rocks used. Then it just moved in tandem with the tank level. That will last forever.

 

[Lavey29]

The higher the phosphate, the more binds, and the lower the phosphate, the less binds. It's not a one and done sort of thing. And it never can raise phosphate higher than the water phosphate level that was attained during the binding.

It may have been binding at the beginning, or it may have come in with some, depending on the rocks used. Then it just moved in tandem with the tank level. That will last forever.

Thanks for the reply. So basically if I use media to bring the level down some and the media gets used up then it will quickly rise back to .4 again. Essentially there is no simple natural remedy for this and I have an established refugium with an oversized skimmer.

Running a GFO reactor 24/7 is probably the only way to keep it down now and changing the GFO every few days huh?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the reply. So basically if I use media to bring the level down some and the media gets used up then it will quickly rise back to .4 again. Essentially there is no simple natural remedy for this and I have an established refugium with an oversized skimmer.

Running a GFO reactor 24/7 is probably the only way to keep it down now and changing the GFO every few days huh?

Each time you remove some, it will come back not quite as high. Repeat that many times and phosphate goes steadily downward, even if not near as fast as one might expect for a simple bucket of water.

If it keeps going back fully to the same level many times, then you are just offsetting the additions via foods, and need to use more or change it more often.

The expense of GFO is why some people prefer lanthanum.

 

[Lavey29]

So my coralline algae has had an explosion of growth the past month and a half that my phosphate has been elevated.

We all know elevated phosphate may cause algae problems. Do you guys this this is also causing the coralline take off too?

I noticed my alk consumption increased again also and assume the same for calcium but haven't tested cal this week yet.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So my coralline algae has had an explosion of growth the past month and a half that my phosphate has been elevated.

We all know elevated phosphate may cause algae problems. Do you guys this this is also causing the coralline take off too?

I noticed my alk consumption increased again also and assume the same for calcium but haven't tested cal this week yet.

I've not seen evidence that higher phosphate leads to faster coralline growth than phosphate in a more typical range of, say, 0.03 to 0.1 ppm.

 

[Lavey29]

Thought I would update this. The usual methods for reducing my phosphate failed. I got up to .51. GFO and phosguard did nothing. Cut my charto back short and nothing there either.

I'm not a fan of chemicals in the water column but my LFS suggested phosphate RX which is lanthium chloride mix. I tried a very small 6 drop dose and didn't see any results. I increased to 18 drops which is a half size dose for my tank. I split it into two 9 drop doses. In theory this reduces .25 per day. After 2 days of dosing this my phosphate is .1 now.

There were no noticeable effects to my tank. No cloudy water, no skimmer over flow, nothing noticed at all. I am going to say I recommend using this product but with caution. I have heard of many bad outcomes with it too but for me it worked very well.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Thought I would update this. The usual methods for reducing my phosphate failed. I got up to .51. GFO and phosguard did nothing. Cut my charto back short and nothing there either.

I'm not a fan of chemicals in the water column but my LFS suggested phosphate RX which is lanthium chloride mix. I tried a very small 6 drop dose and didn't see any results. I increased to 18 drops which is a half size dose for my tank. I split it into two 9 drop doses. In theory this reduces .25 per day. After 2 days of dosing this my phosphate is .1 now.

There were no noticeable effects to my tank. No cloudy water, no skimmer over flow, nothing noticed at all. I am going to say I recommend using this product but with caution. I have heard of many bad outcomes with it too but for me it worked very well.

In my opinion, the issue is you dropped your phosphates too fast and you’re not gonna see an instant issue with any of your corals, but after a couple days or weeks is when you will see the problem you caused from dropping it so fast in my opinion, so in two weeks from now make sure you post back

 

[Lavey29]

In my opinion, the issue is you dropped your phosphates too fast and you’re not gonna see an instant issue with any of your corals, but after a couple days or weeks is when you will see the problem you caused from dropping it so fast in my opinion, so in two weeks from now make sure you post back

Possible, it went down .2 per day. I watched a video on melevs reef that said he had dropped way faster on his large system with no side affects. I think phosphate and nitrate levels can drop easier without affecting corals like alk does. So far so good today.

 

[geeked]

Possible, it went down .2 per day. I watched a video on melevs reef that said he had dropped way faster on his large system with no side affects. I think phosphate and nitrate levels can drop easier without affecting corals like alk does. So far so good today.

How did the drop affect your corals?