Phosphates Through the roof

[BeanAnimal]

They would work indirectly as a preventative - and that may not be a bad thing, but not cost effective in the sense that filter pad, mat or floss would do the same thing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Anxiety level 5000 lol

I am at .25 or so now... (no water changes still). 5 years no skimmer either. Just added one back as I am getting ready for a big SPS push. The only export for the last 5 years has been hair algae removal from the top of the blue ridge that grew to the water surface.

 

[Fish Styx]

Here’s another quote from Randy about this product:



If you click on Randy’s name in the quote, you will get transported to the original thread he posted that message in.

I wasn't saying anything regarding their efficacy, simply offering a potential point of clarification regarding the OP's post.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ohh I forgot to post the calculator:

Aquarium Water Change Calculator | BeanAnimal's Reef

Use this aquarium water change calculator to chart how a given water parameter will rise or fall over the course of multiple water changes.

beananimal.com

The old article was lost in a server move - but it was based on some great articles that Randy authored many years ago. I wrote my condensed version (the one that got lost) to go with my calculator (something also made possible by Randy's articles).

 

[Lavey29]

Water changes will remove phosphates and nitrates from solution in the exact same proportions. If you do a 25% water change, 25% of ALL pollutants in solution will be removed. Yes, more phosphates may leach back into the water column depending on ph and other variables, requiring the use of GHO for control. That does not, however, change the fact that diluting a solution has an equal effect on all salutes in the solvent.

So basically, my phosphate is .1 and I do 20% water change. My phosphate should be .08 right? We all know it won't be because as fast as you remove it the rocks and sand leach it back in. Water changes alone will not control it unless you have a nano tank and do weekly 50% changes. Other remedies need to be incorporated such as GFO, fuge, modified feeding etc... water changes do very little to control phosphate but do help with nitrates and certainly replenish major and trace elements which is good for your tank.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So basically, my phosphate is .1 and I do 20% water change. My phosphate should be .08 right? We all know it won't be because as fast as you remove it the rocks and sand leach it back in. Water changes alone will not control it unless you have a nano tank and do weekly 50% changes. Other remedies need to be incorporated such as GFO, fuge, modified feeding etc... water changes do very little to control phosphate but do help with nitrates and certainly replenish major and trace elements which is good for your tank.

Not all systems are the same. The amount of sequestered phosphate can vary drastically, as can its ability to leach back out. How much rock, how much substate? Is it a SSB, DSB, Bare Bottom? How porous is the rock, etc.

 

[thom_smith]

Is everything other then phosphate in order? Before doing anything I would verify with another tester. If it is that elevated with two different testers than it's definitely elevated. Lanthanum works like a champ if everything else is good. If not, do water changes to get them in line before lanthanum. Plug your volume, current and target values in this calculator. Pick a product. Order it and at least a couple 5 micron/1 micron socks. Dillute--I dillute several hundred:1--and dose into socks slowly decreasing phosphate over many days. Test every day. Don't overdose. You'll be back down to a reasonable level in no time.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Is everything other then phosphate in order? Before doing anything I would verify with another tester. If it is that elevated with two different testers than it's definitely elevated. Lanthanum works like a champ if everything else is good. If not, do water changes to get them in line before lanthanum. Plug your volume, current and target values in this calculator. Pick a product. Order it and at least a couple 5 micron/1 micron socks. Dillute--I dillute several hundred:1--and dose into socks slowly decreasing phosphate over many days. Test every day. Don't overdose. You'll be back down to a reasonable level in no time.

Repeating my earlier post. In my opinion, after TONS of research and extensive personal experience LaCl should never be used in a system with fish. It does harm...

 

[Lavey29]

Not all systems are the same. The amount of sequestered phosphate can vary drastically, as can its ability to leach back out. How much rock, how much substate? Is it a SSB, DSB, Bare Bottom? How porous is the rock, etc.

Absolutely agree, which makes saying a 20% water change removes 20% phosphates from your tank even more inaccurate. My phosphates are currently .41 which is elevated. I did a 20% water change yesterday so my phosphates should be .33 according to the dilution is the solution theory. Just checked them 2 minutes ago now and I'm sitting at .41 with a fuge, GFO and phosguard in my sump.

I wonder why it's not going down with that 20% water change? We know why...

 

[Fish Styx]

So basically, my phosphate is .1 and I do 20% water change. My phosphate should be .08 right? We all know it won't be because as fast as you remove it the rocks and sand leach it back in. Water changes alone will not control it unless you have a nano tank and do weekly 50% changes. Other remedies need to be incorporated such as GFO, fuge, modified feeding etc... water changes do very little to control phosphate but do help with nitrates and certainly replenish major and trace elements which is good for your tank.

Nobody is disagreeing with you regarding the return of phosphate levels to equilibrium by being unbound in solution after water changes. The sticking point is on the chemistry regarding the dilution of salutes in solvent. The solvent being the fluid removed from the water column at the time of WC. I think that we are all in agreement on the key factors here. Those being that the source of the nutrient input must be identified and controlled, and that GFO is highly effective at maintaining lower phosphate levels as a nutrient export methodology.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Absolutely agree, which makes saying a 20% water change removes 20% phosphates from your tank even more inaccurate. My phosphates are currently .41 which is elevated. I did a 20% water change yesterday so my phosphates should be .33 according to the dilution is the solution theory. Just checked them 2 minutes ago now and I'm sitting at .41 with a fuge, GFO and phosguard in my sump.

I wonder why it's not going down with that 20% water change? We know why...

Why are we still doing this? And now we are going to get into the weeds of "system" vs "water column"??

The water changed removed the phosphates from your WATER... your rock leached them back in. Nobody is saying that that will not happen. The distinction and correction was regarding what a water change dilutes in the water column. It has nothing to do with what happens after. Please move on.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Something not mentioned here is rock or substrate removal And replacement. You can also remove some of the rock and rinse/flush or process It outside of the system. I used this method when things were at the 1.0 level and it helped a get deal.

Also, giving everything a good power head blow off before A water change and/or temp use of a filter sock during the blow off can also remove a lot of detritus that is not yet inert.

 

[thom_smith]

Repeating my earlier post. In my opinion, after TONS of research and extensive personal experience LaCl should never be used in a system with fish. It does harm...

I agree to an extent. If dosed carelessly... However if done properly it is very predictable. I occasionally dose to my tank knowing the volume is 231 gallons and can pinpoint desired phosphate levels with ppm accuracy. The key is the 5 micron/1 micron (I prefer using 1 micron) filter sock to immediately remove it. Simply dosing and hoping it will remove itself is living dangerously. Done carefully and safely, my monthly ICPs measure for lanthanum with ppb accuracy and they have been 0 forever and a day.

 

[Fish Styx]

Something not mentioned here is rock or substrate removal And replacement. You can also remove some of the rock and rinse/flush or process It outside of the system. I used this method when things were at the 1.0 level and it helped a get deal.

Also, giving everything a good power head blow off before A water change and/or temp use of a filter so during the blow off can also remove a lot of detritus that is not yet inert.

Solid point.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I agree to an extent. If dosed carelessly... However if done properly it is very predictable. I occasionally dose to my tank knowing the volume is 231 gallons and can pinpoint desired phosphate levels with ppm accuracy. The key is the 5 micron/1 micron (I prefer using 1 micron) filter sock to immediately remove it. Simply dosing and hoping it will remove itself is living dangerously. Done carefully and safely, my monthly ICPs measure for lanthanum with ppb accuracy and they have been 0 forever and a day.

I do not agree at all, based on my personal experience and research. That said, your opinion is as valid as mine in this case, as there is not a lot of hard science on the subject.

FWIW - I dosed HIGHLY diluted 1 drop at a time into (3) cascaded filter socks 1 micron, .5, .5 changed daily and nearly killed my scopas tang… 3 different times over a 2 year experiment thinking I could get the dose low enough. The effects were cumulative. I am sure the ICP test would show 0. It all does get bound, but some of it apparently on the gills.

I am not going to convince everyone and people will have their own experience and opinion. I just wanted to voice mine as well.

 

[Lavey29]

Why are we still doing this? And now we are going to get into the weeds of "system" vs "water column"??

The water changed removed the phosphates from your WATER... your rock leached them back in. Nobody is saying that that will not happen. The distinction and correction was regarding what a water change dilutes in the water column. It has nothing to do with what happens after. Please move on.

Sure and just to be clear, normal weekly water changes alone will not typically prove to be a sufficient export method for phosphate control right? Perhaps on a small nano tank but not medium or large systems.

 

[thom_smith]

I scrolled through many of the replies and may have missed it but one obvious thing comes to mind... Have you tested your fresh mixed saltwater? Are you ADDING phosphates to the tank during water changes?

 

[Fish Styx]

Sure and just to be clear, normal weekly water changes alone will not typically prove to be a sufficient export method for phosphate control right? Perhaps on a small nano tank but not medium or large systems.

For me, this is 100% accurate.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sure and just to be clear, normal weekly water changes alone will not typically prove to be a sufficient export method for phosphate control right? Perhaps on a small nano tank but not medium or large systems.

Many people are very successful at keeping phosphates in check with weekly (or whatever) water changes and no GFO or other phosphate control. Every system and situation is different. in All cases, understanding and controlling import is key to being successful, whatever method of export is chosen.

when I was doing very regular water changes, I was able to keep phosphate low. When I stopped and things got out of hand, recovery was a hard fight. That does not mean that I am a water change proponent… I don’t do water changes. That said, when I used to do them, I often did 50-60% changes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I scrolled through many of the replies and may have missed it but one obvious thing comes to mind... Have you tested your fresh mixed saltwater? Are you ADDING phosphates to the tank during water changes?

This happens more than people would think it does.