phosphates

[jose hernandez]

still having problems with my phosphates no space for a reactor was thinking using chemipure which would be a good choice blue or elite

 

[KK's Reef]

I use Blue and it works. Depending on your water volume, it can strip PO4 pretty fast, which is not good so be mindful of that.

 

[jose hernandez]

tank is 200 gallons how many bags do i use

 

[KK's Reef]

tank is 200 gallons how many bags do i use

Follow the recommendation on the label. If anything, it's better to be under than over.

 

[jose hernandez]

k thks

 

[EricR]

Chemi-Pure Elite should be better for phosphate reduction as it contains GFO, although never used it. (I think one of its primary purposes is phosphate reduction)

Chemi-Pure Blue also claims some phosphate reduction (although not as aggressively).
My observation from the couple of times I used the Blue was that it did seem to lower my phosphates, possibly indirectly. (Some with more knowledge have stated it shouldn't based on ingredients)

 

[Reef.]

Do not buy chemi pure blue as it does not reduce po4 at all, it doesn’t contain any GFO, you should just buy rowaphos, give chemi pure a miss as even chemi elite only contains a little gfo, it is mainly carbon and purigen.

 

[jose hernandez]

I’ve tried rowaphos before in my previous set up did nothing for me was told it’s better in a reactor but again didn’t have the space underneath the sump was relying on the refugium to handle phosphates and nitrates same thing is happening now on this set up tried no pox does the job but still keeps goin up

 

[Koh23]

I'm really curious why some have trouble reducing po4, while others have trouble to have them on detectable level.

Newer managed to find anything that will explain this, some barely feed, have one fish, and po4 is high. Others feed 10 times per day, plenty of fish, corals, and yet, undetectable po4.

Is the quantity of rock in system related to po4 levels, in term more rock-lower po4?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm really curious why some have trouble reducing po4, while others have trouble to have them on detectable level.

Newer managed to find anything that will explain this, some barely feed, have one fish, and po4 is high. Others feed 10 times per day, plenty of fish, corals, and yet, undetectable po4.

Is the quantity of rock in system related to po4 levels, in term more rock-lower po4?

The most critical issue is exposed calcium carbonate that is not previously exposed to phosphate.

If there is a lot of that, then there will be a large uptake by the rock and sand.

If there is not a lot of that (due to previous phosphate exposure, or coralline, or other ions coating the surfaces (organics and magnesium), then there will be less or none, or even release of phosphate (from prior high phosphate exposure).

 

[EricR]

No expert but one theory for low phosphates seems to be binding to dry rock and sand.

I'm at one year since tank transfer using half dry rock (and half live) plus dry sand.
My PO4 started bottoming out about 4 months ago.
*not sure if that fits the model or not so just an observation

EDIT -- post #4 just came it at same time -- refer to that instead

 

[Reef.]

I’ve tried rowaphos before in my previous set up did nothing for me was told it’s better in a reactor but again didn’t have the space underneath the sump was relying on the refugium to handle phosphates and nitrates same thing is happening now on this set up tried no pox does the job but still keeps goin up

If using in a bag, yes Rowa is less effective but it still works, you just need to use a little at a time so all of it gets exposed to water and change it very regularly, daily in some cases.

If your po4 is high, the Rowa will get exhausted within hours, than when you feed or the rock or sand release more po4 you think the Rowa is not working.

a good place in a AIO tank is in the filter sock if you use one, put a teaspoon full in the sock, use a 200 micron sock or less.

 

[Koh23]

The most critical issue is exposed calcium carbonate that is not previously exposed to phosphate.

If there is a lot of that, then there will be a large uptake by the rock and sand.

If there is not a lot of that (due to previous phosphate exposure, or coralline, or other ions coating the surfaces (organics and magnesium), then there will be less or none, or even release of phosphate (from prior high phosphate exposure).

So, starting with dry rock/sand will have more uptake of po4?

Is there any time frame, how long untill rock/sand wont bottoming out po4?

I ask mainly because i cant get any detectable level, even with insane feeding. On the same time, macroalgae grows great, so i guess, feeding contribute to nutrient levels, but, its very fast depleted....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, starting with dry rock/sand will have more uptake of po4?

Is there any time frame, how long untill rock/sand wont bottoming out po4?

I ask mainly because i cant get any detectable level, even with insane feeding. On the same time, macroalgae grows great, so i guess, feeding contribute to nutrient levels, but, its very fast depleted....

If it has not previously been exposed to phosphate, which can also happen in nature if it is a mined material.

The time frame is more dependent on how much you add than a number of days. You need to add it until it comes to equilibrium with the amount you want to maintain in the water.

 

[Reef.]

The most critical issue is exposed calcium carbonate that is not previously exposed to phosphate.

If there is a lot of that, then there will be a large uptake by the rock and sand.

If there is not a lot of that (due to previous phosphate exposure, or coralline, or other ions coating the surfaces (organics and magnesium), then there will be less or none, or even release of phosphate (from prior high phosphate exposure).

Are you saying its just a timeframe thing? whether the po4 is released from the rocks as they have taken up the po4 or the po4 has not been taken up by the rock so is present straight away?

Are you saying rock that has previously been exposed to high lvls of po4 take up more po4 and release more or don’t release or take up more?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you saying its just a timeframe thing? whether the po4 is released from the rocks as they have taken up the po4 or the po4 has not been taken up by the rock so is present straight away?

Are you saying rock that has previously been exposed to high lvls of po4 take up more po4 and release more or don’t release more?

Think of the rock as a reservoir for phosphate, and the size of the reservoir depends on the amount of phosphate that you want to maintain in the water.

The higher the level you want to maintain in the water, the more will bind to the rock.

If the reservoir is not full for the given amount of phosphate in the water, more will bind.

If the reservoir has more in it than the balance with the amount in the water, phosphate will come off.

At some exact concentration of phosphate in the water (say, 0.03 ppm) and some amount of phosphate on the rock and sand (say, as a totally wild number guess, one phosphate ion per 10 square nanometers of exposed surface area) there will be no net binding or release.

On top of that fairly rapid equilibrium (hours, likely, or less to reach equilibrium) there will be a slower component as exposed CaCO3 surfaces in pores and deeper in sand slowly attain equilibrium. That could be days to weeks or longer, but the effect on the tank water concentration gets lower and lower per day as those events become slower and slower.

 

[Koh23]

Is it safe to assume that after 12+ months if serious feeding, something else strips po4 very fast to undetectable levels, or is it still possible to "blame" rock?

 

[Reef.]

Think of the rock as a reservoir for phosphate, and the size of the reservoir depends on the amount of phosphate that you want to maintain in the water.

The higher the level you want to maintain in the water, the more will bind to the rock.

If the reservoir is not full for the given amount of phosphate in the water, more will bind.

If the reservoir has more in it than the balance with the amount in the water, phosphate will come off.

At some exact concentration of phosphate in the water (say, 0.03 ppm) and some amount of phosphate on the rock and sand (say, as a totally wild number guess, one phosphate ion per 10 square nanometers of exposed surface area) there will be no net binding or release.

On top of that fairly rapid equilibrium (hours, likely, or less to reach equilibrium) there will be a slower component as exposed CaCO3 surfaces in pores and deeper in sand slowly attain equilibrium. That could be days to weeks or longer, but the effect on the tank water concentration gets lower and lower per day as those events become slower and slower.

Thanks for the explanation, think I understand now…the rock acts as a store room for po4, if the display has more stock than the store room the po4 goes to the store room, if the store room has more stock than what’s on display, it refills the display.

My tank is going through an explosion of po4 release, it’s only 14g but I have already used over 500g of Rowa over the last few weeks, changing daily and I am still getting po4 readings, if I don’t change every day or two, my rock and sand are covered in algae.

 

[areefer01]

One thing to consider before taking action is do you know why your phosphates may be high and is there a noticeable problem? If there is a problem can it be managed another way (do you have enough herbivores for example or the right ones)?

Also for what it is worth 14 gallons you can change the water and solve the problem without rushing to chemicals.

 

[Spare time]

Do not buy chemi pure blue as it does not reduce po4 at all, it doesn’t contain any GFO, you should just buy rowaphos, give chemi pure a miss as even chemi elite only contains a little gfo, it is mainly carbon and purigen.

Only blue has purigen