Phytoplankton as a nutrient export method

[DanyL]

I wonder if the uptake of phyto from hungry coral would count as export of nutrients. A skimmer moves stuff into a cup but the corals are still in the tank. How to measure all of this, is the challenge.

If we use plant growth as a measurement, assuming growth requires nutrient uptake, does uptake = export?

In one sense there is no way phyto could work but in another there is no way it can't. Experimental design is the key to answering the question of what is accomplished, and where?

It would count as export/displacement as long as the source of NP originated from within the system, rather than imported in the first place from an outside culture.

So in your example - the phyto must first grow inside the tank, consume NP and then be consumed by itsef by other tank inhabitants.

 

[bozo]

I dose phyto and it lowers my phosphates. Doesnt look like it does anything for my nitrates in my tank.

 

[Dinkins Aquatic Gardens]

Anecdotally, we get a lot of feedback from customers that our phyto lowers their phosphates and nitrates. My theory is that in most systems, live phyto consumes nutrients and is itself consumed by pods/corals (or removed by the skimmer) and thus the nutrients are bound in new tissue or are exported. But that's just a best guess based on most customers reporting reductions in nutrients.

 

[GARRIGA]

Anecdotally, we get a lot of feedback from customers that our phyto lowers their phosphates and nitrates. My theory is that in most systems, live phyto consumes nutrients and is itself consumed by pods/corals (or removed by the skimmer) and thus the nutrients are bound in new tissue or are exported. But that's just a best guess based on most customers reporting reductions in nutrients.

All plants need phosphate including single cell variants. Technically so does all life but plants can be limited by lack of phosphates. So I've read.

 

[Reef By Steele]

I put this in another thread. This is my experience, and there are a lot of benefits, some more measurable than others, but are they fact or anecdotal? Now I sell phytoplankton and pods, so you can take this with a grain of salt, but here is what I saw in my tanks. 13 1/2 weeks ago I had major shoulder surgery. I did water changes the week before in my 6 systems. I have always fought nutrients to the point that I started dosing lanthanum and homemade NOPOX.
During this 13 1/2 weeks there was almost zero maintenance to these tanks. I maybe switched out a roller Matt in two of them, but in the others I never even switched out the socks.

In my logs the last tests all in Hanna checkers I recorded were on 8/22. 110 reef N 26 P .1 with dosing 12/7 N 8.3 P .61, 210 reef 8/22 N 14.3 P .3 12/7 N 5.1 P .21 160 Predator aorta FOWLR (have GSP) 8/22 N 36.3 P .19, 12/7 N 5.6 P .9 maxed the tester.

Now although my P is high, I have not cleaned the skimmer cup, pulled anything from the fuge, replenished my “chemicals” so fairly happy with those numbers. And my fam fed a good portion of this time and I know they fed extra. I haven’t tested the other three, one is fallow for the entire time, and just haven’t made the time. Did water changes in the 110 and 210 reef and in the 210 fallow angel tank. Have water mixed for the 160, but think I got Paly Toxin yesterday and just got back from Dr and don’t feel up to it.

Now because I culture my own, I dose more than I could afford to buy, but it makes a difference. I dose 2 ml for every actual gallon water volume with nightly feeding, and will probably go to three now that I’m mostly up and running.

Another point to consider is, was your phyto live. Only live phytoplankton will consume nutrients, dead/non viable will raise nutrients if more is added than is consumed.

 

[Subsea]

Anecdotally, we get a lot of feedback from customers that our phyto lowers their phosphates and nitrates. My theory is that in most systems, live phyto consumes nutrients and is itself consumed by pods/corals (or removed by the skimmer) and thus the nutrients are bound in new tissue or are exported. But that's just a best guess based on most customers reporting reductions in nutrients.

Kudos to your best guess. It is good science.

 

[besskurz]

I could do myself a test as I dont have mechanical filtration or skimmer.

I got a jaubert bowl with little less than 5 gal net volume. So... everything I pour in, does not go anywhere. Somebody has to eat that, I don't have a wc schedule to export anything.

my test kit is an API and do not have a high resolution, but when I test - this very rare now - it's zero.

I do home grow phyto with f/2 from mercer As @Subsea and I'm a "pour in" type of guy too @DanyL haha but my phyto is stored in the fridge, so I assume they are dead.

Not sure what nutrient we are chasing @DrDirt but I could pour x% of the total volume and test after and before and keep the amount to test the decay time rate. Empirically I would say, it will be zero in all basic tests of No2 no3 nh3-4 if I give a day. Probably in a hourly testing this will be different... maybe somebody all geared up with trident equipment could check easily as well.

 

[Subsea]

Outstanding. Your refrigerated phyto is NOT dead.

I always refrigerate spare phyto for a backup. Every mouth, I recycle out old phyto and bring in fresh live

 

[Reef By Steele]

Outstanding. Your refrigerated phyto is NOT dead.

I always refrigerate spare phyto for a backup. Every mouth, I recycle out old phyto and bring in fresh live

I agree here. Phyto can stay viable for weeks in the fridge. It does harm if not kill Isochrysis though.

 

[Crosaldo]

I been culturing phyto and add to my system, I guess the phyto in fact it’s the first step of the tropic chain to keep and stability in the tank, the filter feeders the corals and zooplankton get a benefit from it and helps to consume nutrients, in my experience I been seen this stability since I started culturing phyto and zooplankton

 

[Subsea]

I could do myself a test as I dont have mechanical filtration or skimmer.

I got a jaubert bowl with little less than 5 gal net volume. So... everything I pour in, does not go anywhere. Somebody has to eat that, I don't have a wc schedule to export anything.

my test kit is an API and do not have a high resolution, but when I test - this very rare now - it's zero.

I do home grow phyto with f/2 from mercer As @Subsea and I'm a "pour in" type of guy too @DanyL haha but my phyto is stored in the fridge, so I assume they are dead.

Not sure what nutrient we are chasing @DrDirt but I could pour x% of the total volume and test after and before and keep the amount to test the decay time rate. Empirically I would say, it will be zero in all basic tests of No2 no3 nh3-4 if I give a day. Probably in a hourly testing this will be different... maybe somebody all geared up with trident equipment could check easily as well.

If you do this experiment, I suggest kits better than API.

 

[besskurz]

If you do this experiment, I suggest kits better than API.

Oh yeah I would need some ULR or even ICP. But im just thinking out loud.
I could do this to proof that the 'ol jaubert still works

 

[DrDirt]

Thanks all for the thoughtful comments. To be clear I have no doubt on the benefits of phytoplankton dosing. It is the base of the food chain in a marine environment after all. As some of you know I am in the process of setting up a new tank, and I am also a biochemist and environmental engineer by trade. I am one of those guys that relishes the build as much or more as as the actual animal husbandry in the hobby.

I was contemplating a continuous feed system for live phytoplankton into the new tank, as opposed to periodic dosing of largely dead phytoplankton out of the refrigerator. The math suggests that you would need to maintain quite a bit of live phytoplankton in an aquarium to move the needle much in terms of nutrient export (assuming the phytoplankton remains viable and actually grows at a reasonable rate in an aquarium). It would appear to me though, again assuming phytoplankton actually grows at a reasonable rate in an aquarium, that the live phytoplankton would be much less likely to increase nutrient levels when dosing heavily in a well stocked tank.

 

[DrDirt]

All plants need phosphate including single cell variants. Technically so does all life but plants can be limited by lack of phosphates. So I've read.

Phosphates are generally a limiting nutrient in most healthy aquatic environments.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

This is my experience. I have/grow cultures of Tet, Iso and Cheato. I dose a turkey baster full twice a day of each. Until recently I was having a hard time showing any nutrients (hanna). My tanks are 40g's one 30g and at various ages of one to three years old in its present forms. Tet and Iso will reproduce in your tanks, Cheato will if you have silicates. The micron size of most phyto is smaller than most filter socks and roller mat materials, and your skimmer is not going to pull the phyto out of your tank right away. It's would make sense that the phyto that is still circulating in your tank (live) is doing its thing and up taking nutrient’s and/or reproducing. It will continue to do so until it is removed from the system either biologically or mechanically.
Will it reduce your nutrient’s noticeably? I guess it will depend on the amount of live phyto in your system at a given time. But yes it will reduce your nutrient level. Phyto does not stop its biological activities just because you took it out of your culture and put it in your DT.

 

[Subsea]

Oh yeah I would need some ULR or even ICP. But im just thinking out loud.
I could do this to proof that the 'ol jaubert still works

Not so fast my friend. The final product of the Jaubert Plenum is a free nitrogen gas molecule.

Nitrification reduces ammonia to nitrite than nitrate. Denitrification occurs in a reducing oxygen enviroment where Faculative bacteria, break apart & consume the oxygen molecule, thus releasing a free nitrogen gas molecule.

So, your “Jaubert Plenum in a bowl” does have nutrient export & import thru gas exchange at the water/air interface. Good luck on measuring that.

PS: copied from another thread

Tale of Two Cities or Phoenix Rises

Pardon my use of classic literature in the title of this thread. It comes with my age at 75 years young. I have operated marine aquariums for 51 years, thus a companion thread “Nutrient Management by Old School Reefer”...

www.reef2reef.com

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tale-of-two-cities-or-phoenix-rises.951824/post-10837752

 

[Bioloco (EasyReefs)]

Hello, everyone. The idea of exporting nutrients from the aquarium by dosing phytoplankton and growing it in the aquarium is very interesting and something that has been debated for a long time. This attractive idea faces several basic problems.

The first is that if there is no control of the crop that is added, as has already been mentioned above, part of the culture medium will enter the system, increasing the nutrient ratio and/or consequently we may generate a problem of algae and/or nutrients that we did not have before.

The second problem is that the micro algae that we add (not the one that can grow in our tank) has specific requirements for nutrients and lighting that don't occur in the aquarium, so it does not grow or does so very sparsely and insufficient. If the aquarium has optimal growth conditions for the phyto culture we add, we may possibly affect the health of our corals. If there is no growth of microalgae, there will be no ellimination of nutrients and if there is no export of organic matter from the aquarium, either by the skimer, water changes or by mechanical filtration, what there will be is an accumulation of biomass that the filters of the aquarium may not consume the same level completely. Soon or later a problem in the tank will be produce.

For this reason, it is always more advisable to use macroalgae (much more efficient and controllable) to remove nutrients from the water and use controlled phytoplankton cultures (live or freeze-dried) for direct and indirect feeding of the filter-feeding organisms that are living in the aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Anecdotally, we get a lot of feedback from customers that our phyto lowers their phosphates and nitrates. My theory is that in most systems, live phyto consumes nutrients and is itself consumed by pods/corals (or removed by the skimmer) and thus the nutrients are bound in new tissue or are exported. But that's just a best guess based on most customers reporting reductions in nutrients.

If there is an effect, I think that while your suggestion plays a part, it isn't the whole story. Consumed foods (which would include phyto) are only partly incorporated into tissue. More is likely released than is incorporated into tissue (that is certainly true of food studies in people, fish, etc.).

I would suggest that export of the phyto by skimming may actually export more N and P than is incorporated into tissues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Phosphates are generally a limiting nutrient in most healthy aquatic environments.

Depends on the environment and the organism. In studies in the ocean, iron is sometimes limiting, and when it is not, then whether N or P is limiting at a single location can depend on the organism.

In this study, for example, 8 of 9 macroalgae species studied were nitrogen limited, and one (codium edule) was phosphate limited:

Wayback Machine

 

[Subsea]

“So, your “Jaubert Plenum in a bowl” does have nutrient export & import thru gas exchange at the water/air interface. Good luck on measuring that.“

The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 3: Science, Art, and Technology Hardcover – November 25, 2005​

by Julian Sprung (Author), J. Charles Delbeek (Author

”nitrification & denitrification happen in close proximity of each other“

and good luck on measuring that.

Hello, everyone. The idea of exporting nutrients from the aquarium by dosing phytoplankton and growing it in the aquarium is very interesting and something that has been debated for a long time. This attractive idea faces several basic problems.

The first is that if there is no control of the crop that is added, as has already been mentioned above, part of the culture medium will enter the system, increasing the nutrient ratio and/or consequently we may generate a problem of algae and/or nutrients that we did not have before.

The second problem is that the micro algae that we add (not the one that can grow in our tank) has specific requirements for nutrients and lighting that don't occur in the aquarium, so it does not grow or does so very sparsely and insufficient. If the aquarium has optimal growth conditions for the phyto culture we add, we may possibly affect the health of our corals. If there is no growth of microalgae, there will be no ellimination of nutrients and if there is no export of organic matter from the aquarium, either by the skimer, water changes or by mechanical filtration, what there will be is an accumulation of biomass that the filters of the aquarium may not consume the same level completely. Soon or later a problem in the tank will be produce.

For this reason, it is always more advisable to use macroalgae (much more efficient and controllable) to remove nutrients from the water and use controlled phytoplankton cultures (live or freeze-dried) for direct and indirect feeding of the filter-feeding organisms that are living in the aquarium.

welcome to the party and to r2r.

Basic Problems

“The first is that if there is no control of the crop that is added, as has already been mentioned above, part of the culture medium will enter the system, increasing the nutrient ratio and/or consequently we may generate a problem of algae and/or nutrients that we did not have before.“

OP asked if process had been tracked/not controlled. I don’t manage nutrients, I partner with them.

“The second problem is that the micro algae that we add (not the one that can grow in our tank) has specific requirements for nutrients and lighting that don't occur in the aquarium, so it does not grow or does so very sparsely and insufficient. If the aquarium has optimal growth conditions for the phyto culture we add, we may possibly affect the health of our corals. If there is no growth of microalgae, there will be no ellimination of nutrients and if there is no export of organic matter from the aquarium, either by the skimer, water changes or by mechanical filtration, what there will be is an accumulation of biomass that the filters of the aquarium may not consume the same level completely. Soon or later a problem in the tank will be produce.“

I run 10K color spectrum in all of my display tanks. I assure you, phytoplankton will grow in these systems.


“I would suggest that export of the phyto by skimming may actually export more N and P than is incorporated into tissues.“

100% agreement, yet I am skimmerless,