PLEASE HELP, ALK @20.0

[A$AP-Reefer]

Have you compared your hanna alk checkers reading to a titration test like Salifert or ReaSea?

Seems like you made a few knee jerk reactions like big water changes, etc etc based soley on your checkers results ? that could explain visual indicators of stress from your corals.
Id confirm your Dkh with a titration kit before taking further action. Could be a faulty checker, comprised reagent etc.

Hey, so I checked it and it is comparable to my hanna the DKH tested .06-.08 on the salifert test kit. So in the same range on my hanna checker. I will check the hanna checker again to see if it is the same -/+.5 on either kit.

 

[Emptyness]

First of all, I want to say that I am very new to this hobby (started just 3 months ago), so maybe I am talking complete nonsense and I appologise if I missed something,

BUT in my humble personal opinion you have a pure chemical problem resulting from you, adding a big dose of

• ESV B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System Component #2 CALCIUM MSDS

in order to increase your tank Ca level. In the Safety data sheet of this component from the ESV site - we can read that it contains 100% Aqueous Solution of Non-hazardous inorganic salts - basically, you don't know what exactly you are putting in your tank and you don't know how it will react with the substances that are already in your tank. On top of that - you are adding only 1 of the 2-part system - maybe it's not working like it's supposed to, without the other part. Yes, you know you got your Ca high again (in a single day), but is that all? I think not. And we are seeing the results now.

As this article shows, "Alkalinity in a marine aquarium is simply a measure of the amount of acid (H+) required to reduce the pH to about 4.2, where all carbonate and bicarbonate are converted into carbonic acid" and "when performing an alkalinity titration with a test kit, you are “counting” the number of bicarbonate ions present."

Basically, you messed up your tank chemistry and now you need to fix it. You already have proven that big water change with freshly mixed salt water, that you know has good parameters, makes your alkalinity drop. But you are wondering why it starts to creep back up after that? Well, you still have those "unknown" inorganic salts or their byproducts in your system, since you had done "only 30% wc". So, the chemical reactions are still continuing.

My suggestions is - you should do 1x 100% water change, then wait, measure, and after a day or couple of days do another 100% wc. Or when you notice an increase again, because maybe some of the inorganic salts are in your sand and rocks.

Before that, as suggested already, you should try to move your corals out of the tank for a few days. All this happening now is a lot of stress for them.

Just my 2 cents, which again - should be taken with a kinda huge grain of salt. GL an keep us updated!

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

Already on it. Waiting to tune in this dang heater and XFERing the corals.

 

[John08007]

Not an expert, but the Hannah checker is using light to shine through the vial to determine the results. I'd think if the water is cloudy that it could throw this number off. Do you have a non Hannah test kit?

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

Check the comments, I used a salifert test kit as well and same results I posted a photo should be in page 4 bottom.

Oh , it's on the top of this page nvm .

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

So , update. I just checked the ALK at 6:25am I finally Xfered whatever I can fit in the 33g brute bucket on a frag rack and it is lifted from the floor. With a small pump and a heater which was a monster to dial in. It is a ehiem Jager.

Hope this goes well.

Also I had bought these tiles from a LFS store front, I had just put them in about a week or so ago, I noticed when I took them out IT WAS LIKE BLACK on the bottom. None of my rubble rock that I had frags on had BLACK on them, it was told to me that these were ocean wonders 3" frag tiles and none of the other things that were on the sand bed eith them had black on it and they've been in there allot longer. Hmmmm has me thinking right now, but... I don't think that can be the problem.


Pictures of the frag tiles undersides which were on the sand.

Mind you, all my other rubble rock frags which were rubble from my aquamaxx reefsaver rock from BRS HAVE no black on them, they just look like new since they were on the sand bed.

 

[Jman76]

First of all, I want to say that I am very new to this hobby (started just 3 months ago), so maybe I am talking complete nonsense and I appologise if I missed something,

BUT in my humble personal opinion you have a pure chemical problem resulting from you, adding a big dose of

• ESV B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System Component #2 CALCIUM MSDS

in order to increase your tank Ca level. In the Safety data sheet of this component from the ESV site - we can read that it contains 100% Aqueous Solution of Non-hazardous inorganic salts - basically, you don't know what exactly you are putting in your tank and you don't know how it will react with the substances that are already in your tank. On top of that - you are adding only 1 of the 2-part system - maybe it's not working like it's supposed to, without the other part. Yes, you know you got your Ca high again (in a single day), but is that all? I think not. And we are seeing the results now.

As this article shows, "Alkalinity in a marine aquarium is simply a measure of the amount of acid (H+) required to reduce the pH to about 4.2, where all carbonate and bicarbonate are converted into carbonic acid" and "when performing an alkalinity titration with a test kit, you are “counting” the number of bicarbonate ions present."

Basically, you messed up your tank chemistry and now you need to fix it. You already have proven that big water change with freshly mixed salt water, that you know has good parameters, makes your alkalinity drop. But you are wondering why it starts to creep back up after that? Well, you still have those "unknown" inorganic salts or their byproducts in your system, since you had done "only 30% wc". So, the chemical reactions are still continuing.

My suggestions is - you should do 1x 100% water change, then wait, measure, and after a day or couple of days do another 100% wc. Or when you notice an increase again, because maybe some of the inorganic salts are in your sand and rocks.

Before that, as suggested already, you should try to move your corals out of the tank for a few days. All this happening now is a lot of stress for them.

Just my 2 cents, which again - should be taken with a kinda huge grain of salt. GL an keep us updated!

+1 on this...big clue

The night after I noticed the cal dropped to 20-204 and the alk was still 9.1DKH so I brought it up back to around 400-420 over a day. Then about 2 days or so later I noticed things starting to look weird, also prior to that my star fish was doing this weird thing I never seen..

 

[tnc112105]

Where do you keep your dosing bottles? Is it possible one is leaking? I think you said you haven’t been dosing, but are the lines hooked up to a dosing pump? Sometimes the tubing/rollers in peristaltic pumps can wear out and drip. Sorry if this was asked/addressed already. I hope your corals pull through

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

Where do you keep your dosing bottles? Is it possible one is leaking? I think you said you haven’t been dosing, but are the lines hooked up to a dosing pump? Sometimes the tubing/rollers in peristaltic pumps can wear out and drip. Sorry if this was asked/addressed already. I hope your corals pull through

It's okay, please don't be sorry, I know been a bit all over the place I keep them in a separate cabinet that's not a part or the tank where I keep everything. I don't own a dosing pump, i had one ordered as a Christmas gift from my girls father.

I have all the corals in a 33gallon brute bucket with a small pump and a heater , the water temp is sitting at 78.5 in the brute bucket temp probe is a inkbird non wireless and the main tank where the problems are occurring is sitting at 78.8 with a inkbird non wireless as well.

I'm legit lost for words and so upset with myself, I just got back into the hobby going on 2 years now and I'm changing my salt which is gonna be the redsea blue bucket. I have the purple bucket but I am not gonna be running an sps tank anytime soon, it's killing me inside and legit want to give up and call it quits.

Thank God I have an amazing LFS P.O.T.O on Staten Island where they are concerned and trying to help me out to the best of their abilities. Such great staff and friends they are.

Other then that.. I am gonna try to hang in there.

I truly appreciate a ll of your with your opinions. I am taking everyone's advice and researching daily. I will most likely do a 90%-100% water change with a redsea blue bucket salt mix and then see where it gets me.

I did the 30g water change the other day and my ALK is rising still I tested it an hour or two after the waterchange and it was sitting at 14 then the next day it creeped up and now present is it at 16.3 still rising. So the next water change in a few days will be 90-100% and then see from there.

 

[tnc112105]

Both in NY! Did you switch lots/bottles of two part or salt batches before you noticed the rising alk?

 

[Shirak]

So , update. I just checked the ALK at 6:25am I finally Xfered whatever I can fit in the 33g brute bucket on a frag rack and it is lifted from the floor. With a small pump and a heater which was a monster to dial in. It is a ehiem Jager.

Hope this goes well.

Also I had bought these tiles from a LFS store front, I had just put them in about a week or so ago, I noticed when I took them out IT WAS LIKE BLACK on the bottom. None of my rubble rock that I had frags on had BLACK on them, it was told to me that these were ocean wonders 3" frag tiles and none of the other things that were on the sand bed eith them had black on it and they've been in there allot longer. Hmmmm has me thinking right now, but... I don't think that can be the problem.


Pictures of the frag tiles undersides which were on the sand.

Mind you, all my other rubble rock frags which were rubble from my aquamaxx reefsaver rock from BRS HAVE no black on them, they just look like new since they were on the sand bed.

How deep is your sand bed? Were these tiles laying on your sand bed? Was the sand underneath them black also? The black may indicate anoxic conditions and hydrogen sulfide production.

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

How deep is your sand bed? Were these tiles laying on your sand bed? Was the sand underneath them black also? The black may indicate anoxic conditions and hydrogen sulfide production.

My sand bed is about 1.5" just the tiles. None of my other plugs and or rock rubble I have had in the tank for quite some time had that, it was just those tiles I took them out and didn't put them in with the transfer.


Tank is still extremely cloudy , I am gonna run another ALK test in either a few hours or the afternoon

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

Both in NY! Did you switch lots/bottles of two part or salt batches before you noticed the rising alk?

Was the rest of my salt batch and bottles. I was using that one so the LOT numbers were the same per bottle , magnesium sulfate and sodium chloride for the salt mix.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

First of all, I want to say that I am very new to this hobby (started just 3 months ago), so maybe I am talking complete nonsense and I appologise if I missed something,

BUT in my humble personal opinion you have a pure chemical problem resulting from you, adding a big dose of

• ESV B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System Component #2 CALCIUM MSDS

in order to increase your tank Ca level.

FWIW, the calcium part of B-ionic does not contain any alkalinity and will not boost it.

The alk part, certainly does. Overdosing it will lead to high alkalinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Check the comments, I used a salifert test kit as well and same results I posted a photo should be in page 4 bottom.

Oh , it's on the top of this page nvm .

We need to be SUPER careful here.

You may not have high alk at all.

Water that is cloudy with suspended calcium carbonate particulates will read false high with ANY alk kit because the calcium carbonate will dissolve into the low pH solution that is inherent to an alk titration test.

I discuss that in several articles, including my precipitate article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

3. Do not bother to measure calcium or alkalinity while the tank is cloudy. The solid calcium carbonate particles will dissolve in an alkalinity test, and all of the carbonate in them will be counted as if it were in solution and part of "alkalinity." The same may happen to some extent with calcium tests. Wait until the water clears, and at that point, alkalinity is more likely to be low than high. Calcium will likely be mostly unchanged.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

We need to be SUPER careful here.

You may not have high alk at all.

Water that is cloudy with suspended calcium carbonate particulates will read false high with ANY alk kit because the calcium carbonate will dissolve into the low pH solution that is inherent to an alk titration test.

I discuss that in several articles, including my precipitate article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

3. Do not bother to measure calcium or alkalinity while the tank is cloudy. The solid calcium carbonate particles will dissolve in an alkalinity test, and all of the carbonate in them will be counted as if it were in solution and part of "alkalinity." The same may happen to some extent with calcium tests. Wait until the water clears, and at that point, alkalinity is more likely to be low than high. Calcium will likely be mostly unchanged.

Finally an answer that seems to make sense.... I've been waiting for you to put your finger on the problem!!!

 

[A$AP-Reefer]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input and advice! Never really figured out what happened. It went away. Lost like 40% OF my corals at that time. Everything is flourishing and doing well and growing like hell! Thank you all again, that is something I never want to happen to anyone or myself again. Wild... !

Hope you all are having a wonderful night !