Please help me diagnose my tanks' problems

[PranK]

Hi All,

I added a thread about this a while back but it was long and had a stupid title so it got no attention.

I have my display (60x24x28) and I have a 2 foot cube (frag tank) on the same system with a large sump.

The crux of the problem is this; The frags in my frag tank are thriving with great growth and really awesome polyp extension. Its easily the most successful tank I've owned and I need to start selling my SPS frags because i'm running out of room. This doesn't seem like a problem until you look in my display tank, easily 2 thirds of the coral in there (not just my SPS but some euphyllia too) are kinda surviving only. Theres very little polyp extension at all.

I spent a lot of time reproducing the environment in my display to match the frag tank but nothing seems to work.

Frag tank has;
2 x maroon clowns
1 x Coral banded shrimp
a bunch of peppermints
BTA
Some Xenia and rhodactis (both unwanted and regularly pruned)
Heaps (like millions) of tiny bristle worms and brittle stars.
2 x Jebao wave makers giving non aggressive flow to the whole tank.
1 x Gen 1 Radion (most frags get 200 - 350 par).

Display has
3 x Gen 2 Pro Radions (had a 4th but removed because I thought it'd be too much. (most SPS get 200 - 400 par)
A lot of fish, mostly 100% reef safe.
I think the only questionable fish is a coral beauty or maybe copper band butterfly but I've never seen them nip.
2 x MP40's and some Jebao wave makers. The tank has no dead spots in the flow and the SPS gets quite aggressive random flow. I've tried winding this back also.

Note that all the things I change I leave for several weeks to detect any change.

All I can think of is that there are pests or something in the display. I've dipped some SPS to check but never get anything off them. Some SPS is still covered in polyps but others are bare. The bare corals have awesome frags in the other tank.

Water is ok I guess considering the frag tank but;
Salinity 1.027
pH ~8.1 - 8.2
Temp 26 (78f)
Alk 8 (stable)
calcium (400 - this has been dropping and i keep increasing the dose. Lots of coraline and SPS frags to blame I guess)
Mg ~1450
Nitrate 3
Phosphates 0.4 (and dropping thanks to increased macro).

Please help me out. This is doing my head in, its been years that I've been battling with something unknown in the display.

Thanks in advance, Christian.

 

[Jekyl]

84 degrees is high. I'd try dropping it slowly to 78

 

[PranK]

.

 

[PranK]

Holy crap, sorry, I calculated the wrong number.
26 is 78!!

 

[Jekyl]

Given that you've tried keeping everything identical and your parameters seems good it's the only thing that strikes me as a possible issue. I've never seen anyone on here running that hot.

 

[PranK]

Given that you've tried keeping everything identical and your parameters seems good it's the only thing that strikes me as a possible issue. I've never seen anyone on here running that hot.

Yep, I can imagine you thought that. I calculated 26C to F incorrectly. Its actually at 78 (84 is ~29 which I agree is far too hot.)

 

[driftin]

Is the only issue polyp extension? And if so, does it improve after lights out? If yes to both, is it really a problem that needs to be solved?

Don't rule out the fish. I have a dwarf angel that is selective in its pecking, but it absolutely is a polyp terrorizer and very few of my SPS have daytime polyp extension. Shortly after lights out though, polyps are out on all my SPS.

 

[Biokabe]

Holy crap, sorry, I calculated the wrong number.
26 is 78!!

Those C -> F conversions will get you every time. =)

To help narrow things down:

Rock in each tank - did they both come from the same source? Are there any differences between the two?

Sand - Do you run barebottom in either tank? How deep is the sand bed in each, and of what type?

Fish - What is the bioload like in the main tank vs. frag tank? What are the exact fish? Copperbands and coral beauties can both be polyp-nippers, and just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Feeding - What do you feed each tank? How much and how often?

 

[PranK]

Is the only issue polyp extension? And if so, does it improve after lights out? If yes to both, is it really a problem that needs to be solved?

Don't rule out the fish. I have a dwarf angel that is selective in its pecking, but it absolutely is a polyp terrorizer and very few of my SPS have daytime polyp extension. Shortly after lights out though, polyps are out on all my SPS.

No, not just polyp extension, total lack of growth and in some instances loss of colour.

Note that it's not all my SPS, there are 2 or 3 doing really well which great growth, colour and PE. Others have gone brown.

Also, I'm not getting many deaths - the corals are surviving. I dont see RTN or STN at all.

My plating monti's are growing well, very quickly.

To try to wrap up the issue better, its that frags of the browned out, non growing SPS are doing the opposite in the frag tank. I'm not trying to diagnose issues with other SPS that I don't have a frag of.

You're spot on with the fish, I have been keeping reef tanks for 20+ years and have had all sorts of fish nipping after dark but I just havent seen any. I also feed a crap load.

 

[PranK]

Those C -> F conversions will get you every time. =)

To help narrow things down:

Rock in each tank - did they both come from the same source? Are there any differences between the two?

Sand - Do you run barebottom in either tank? How deep is the sand bed in each, and of what type?

Fish - What is the bioload like in the main tank vs. frag tank? What are the exact fish? Copperbands and coral beauties can both be polyp-nippers, and just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Feeding - What do you feed each tank? How much and how often?

Why can't we all just use the same standards and then I wouldn't get caught out with the C-> F conversions!!

Same rock source in both tanks.

Barebottom in the frag tank, a small amount of sand in the display, up to 1.5" in some spots and very little in others (was 7+ inches a while ago.)

Fish in display;
Sailfin tang
Purple tang
Foxface
Yellow coral goby
Bicolour blenny
4 x Blue damsels (bought for their pest management abilities)
Mandarin
Coral beauty
Copperband
Royal dottyback
Sixline wrasse
Brownling wrasse
Melanarus wrasse

Both tanks get dry Newlife Spectrum Marine food twice daily, not heaps, maybe 1/4 teaspn frag and 1/2 teason display twice.

Both tanks get Red Sea AB+, 50mls total daily.

Both tanks get 7+ frozen squares Oceans Nutrition & 3 squares coral gumbo ddaily. Mixed between the two. I've started feeding really heavy as my nitrate is very stable and phos coming down.

 

[HB AL]

So the 2 systems use the same water? If the corals in the frag tank are thriving and the corals in the dt are bumming, thats kind of a head scratcher. My guess since both tanks share a sump is that its an issue with the lighting on the dt, either too much or not enough light. Without actually seeing the setup and even then so, I still think it has something to do with the lights, specifically the different par levels.
I would grab a frag from the frag tank and place it in the dt as close to the same distance from the lights as it was in the frag tank and see what happens.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

So to recap this both tanks are on the same sump with the same water? If so, possible Stray voltage in The main display, and your coral beauty is a coral picker.

 

[PranK]

So the 2 systems use the same water? If the corals in the frag tank are thriving and the corals in the dt are bumming, thats kind of a head scratcher. My guess since both tanks share a sump is that its an issue with the lighting on the dt, either too much or not enough light. Without actually seeing the setup and even then so, I still think it has something to do with the lights, specifically the different par levels.
I would grab a frag from the frag tank and place it in the dt as close to the same distance from the lights as it was in the frag tank and see what happens.

So to recap this both tanks are on the same sump with the same water? If so, possible Stray voltage in The main display, and your coral beauty is a coral picker.

Yep, same water, same sump, same return pump.

I have a earth on the DT but its been a while since I checked it, I'll make sure it's still plugged in when I get home.

I might catch the Coral Beauty and throw him in the frag tank to see what happens.

In regards to the lights, I've tried going super low par and super high par and everything in between, with good pauses between each change. The light on the frag tank is only a Gen 1 with 2 blue channels, but they love it!

 

[Pistondog]

Water and temp must be the same for shared sump.
Browning suggests low light, or getting acclimated.

 

[PranK]

Water and temp must be the same for shared sump.
Browning suggests low light, or getting acclimated.

There's enough flow through both to ensure the water is the same.

I'll take some pics when I get home to show the setups.

 

[saltybees]

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

I’m wondering about stray voltage. Also get a par meter if you can borrow or rent one.

 

[Biokabe]

Why can't we all just use the same standards and then I wouldn't get caught out with the C-> F conversions!!

Same rock source in both tanks.

Barebottom in the frag tank, a small amount of sand in the display, up to 1.5" in some spots and very little in others (was 7+ inches a while ago.)

Fish in display;
Sailfin tang
Purple tang
Foxface
Yellow coral goby
Bicolour blenny
4 x Blue damsels (bought for their pest management abilities)
Mandarin
Coral beauty
Copperband
Royal dottyback
Sixline wrasse
Brownling wrasse
Melanarus wrasse

Both tanks get dry Newlife Spectrum Marine food twice daily, not heaps, maybe 1/4 teaspn frag and 1/2 teason display twice.

Both tanks get Red Sea AB+, 50mls total daily.

Both tanks get 7+ frozen squares Oceans Nutrition & 3 squares coral gumbo ddaily. Mixed between the two. I've started feeding really heavy as my nitrate is very stable and phos coming down.

Hey, if you want to convince the rest of America to switch to C, be my guest, I'd personally love it.

As for your DT, it's a head-scratcher for sure.

A couple more questions:

How are the two tanks plumbed? Does each have its own return pump from the sump, or does the water flow from one tank into the other tank and then down into the sump?

When you test your water parameters, do you test from the sump (shared water) or do you test from each individual tank?

I think we can safely eliminate common factors between the two. If there was some basic discrepancy in the water parameters, I have to believe you'd be seeing the same problems in both tanks. So pollutants, missing elements, overall DOC - I don't think your problem lies there. Same thing with rocks, basic filtration, etc.

So then the question becomes, what is different between the two tanks? I'm just spitballing here, so don't take any of these questions as any endorsement for one theory or another... just providing avenues to investigate.

1. Lighting. Do you have a par meter that you can use to check actual PAR values, or are you estimating from published figures? Remember that LEDs do deteriorate over time, and both your Gen 1 and Gen 2 fixtures are getting up in the years. Obviously if you have a meter and have recently checked your PAR values, then that may be less pertinent. Other than that, do you have any differences between the two tanks beyond the # of fixtures and generation of the fixtures? Lighting schedule, etc.?
2. Substrate. You have sand in the display, but not in the frag tank. This could be trapping detritus in your display, leading to localized nutrient excess and the browning you're seeing in your corals. Also, you mentioned that it used to be 7"+ thick until 'not too long ago'. How long ago did you change that?
3. Feeding. Presumably, you give your two tanks different amounts of food. Exactly what is the breakdown? How much does each tank get per gallon? Your display tank contains roughly three times as much volume as your frag tank. Do your corals in the display have access to as much food per coral as the corals in the frag tank?
4. Flow. Have you played around with the flow levels in your display? Do you have too much flow? Too little? The wrong type? Are the browned-out corals getting enough flow to bring them nutrients and dispense with waste? Are they getting so much flow that their tissues are getting damaged?
5. Chemical warfare. Are there any corals or critters in your display that could be releasing toxins that could be behind what you're seeing?
6. Stray voltage. Have you checked whether there's any voltage in the tank using a multimeter?

 

[PranK]

Thanks for the questions, I already have a few things to think about.

I get my water for testing from the display. But I should get it from the sump I guess. While more local water param issues have been a thinking point for me, I've never thought about testing from the sump. On this topic, I did do an ICP to keep me sane and it was almost perfect bar some very small shortages of some trace elements.

1. Lighting; I have a Seneye that I use for checking par. Up until a few weeks ago the frag tank was under a solitary AI Prime which just wasn't sufficient although I had very little complaints from the frags as I did my best to keep them under the light. Since switching to the Gen 1 Radion I now have better spread. I have the Radion on 50% and it's set to acclimate up to 80 I think over 4 weeks. That said, the current par levels in there are really good and things are happy so I might just leave it as it is. The frag light uses the RMS which is ~9" above the water. The display has the 3 Gen 2 pro's about 14" above so there is no dead areas. The display are running at 100% but given my tank depth (28") and the light height, theres no killer high par. The frag tank has par levels between 150 and 300 (90% are between 200 and 300). The DT has some 400 spots, but most are around 200 - 300 also. I might measure it all again and do a diagram over the tank so its easy to visualise the light levels.
2. There's definitely detritus in my sand, when my melanarus goes to sleep at night it stirs up all the sand and you can see the telltale brown/grey dust over everything. The DSB was removed about 2 years ago now.
3. Feeding is a bit haphazard atm. I've never before been able to keep my nitrates so low. I thank the Nopox and Marine pure for this. I've been dropping my Nopox dosing down and increasing feeding to try and get up to 5ppm Nitrate. I feed 7 cubes of frozen Ocean Nutrition along with 4 cubes of Hikari Coral Gumbo daily. This is with 2 x Newlife Spectrum marine food (morning and night) - roughly 1/2 teaspoon DT each time and 1/4 teaspoon frag each time. The amount I give each tank of the frozen food is roughly in proportion to their size. I squirt heaps in each over frags and corals and then pour the rest in each. Its HEAPS more than I used to feed any tank but its all consumed quickly.
4. I have done more testing with flow than anything else. I've tried hugely aggressive flow and I've tried to back it off. I'm now at a point where I am making sure everywhere in the tank has ample water movement but not necessarily directed at the corals. The flow in the frag tank is just back to front glass on a pulse. Everything moves but the frags don't get heaps. I've tried to model the amount of flow in the DT to match, ie monitoring the movement of the polyps and trying to get similar.
5. I have a fair few vermetid snails in the DT but I'm sure I have the same in the FT. I have tried removing them as I see them but they dont seem to cause much trouble. Lots of bristle worms and brittle stars in both. Lots of snails and hermits in both also. A heap of orange cucumbers in the display but small and rarely come out of hiding.
6. Stray voltage - I do have an earth for the tank but its been a long time since I added it and I haven't looked at it for a while. Its also in the DT overflow, so I might add it direct to the display. I need to look up how to test with a multimeter.

Thanks again for the replies, it means a lot and I feel like I'm just on the cusp of having my tank exactly as I want it.

 

[PranK]

A small update here.

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment that quickly became a head slap moment. My display tank lights had a longer photo period than the frag tank. The full lights were on for 9.5 hours where this was 8 hours for the frag tank. So, I've wound back the entire period and even have shorter ramp up/down periods. Its funny, I just kept assuming it was to do with par but never thought about the length of time they were exposed to that par.

I also semi re-aquascaped part of the tank to allow for better water flow around the rocks and around the coral. This kicked up a lot of sediment and sand that I used to try and find dead spots. All the SPS now has what I'd consider to be sufficient flow.

With the above two I have noticed a slight increase in PE on some and a big improvement in one monti's colour.

I replaced my dose pump from a cheapie Jebao Chinese one to an eKoral which is really nice in comparison. The Jebao really didnt match the amount dosed with what the interface said, so I had to make an educated guess for the eKoral dosing volumes. I'll test water every 2 or 3 days for the next week and a bit to get it dialled in.

Lastly, I'm going to go on a fidget-freeze. No changing or moving anything for at least 3 weeks. The only exceptions will be fallen corals or adjusting the doser. I really think I have my hands in the tank too much.

I'll take some pics soon and post. But, fingers crossed. I'll keep this updated.