Plumbing to Manifold

[Addicted2ACRO's]

Yes it does have a separate valve of which I try to restrict only the amount of flow needed for proper operation

 

[UncommonSense]

Yes it does have a separate valve of which I try to restrict only the amount of flow needed for proper operation

okay, good! So, it’s not 80-90% of the water just taking the path of least resistance through the chiller…

Unless the return pump is really worn out/weakening, or there’s an enormous clog in the return plumbing; <200 GPH from one of two returns seems far too low to make sense! — I’ve got 1/4” NPT plumbing doing that flow rate!

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

The return I measured it from is the return that's actually closest to the pump from the manifold

 

[UncommonSense]

The return I measured it from is the return that's actually closest to the pump from the manifold

hmm… interesting! Is the other return more of a straight line, plumbing-wise?

If not, there’s something going on here… a significant plumbing clog, or a pump that is severely underperforming (even beyond only having a 1” outlet)

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

No...its just on the opposite side from the location of the pump. Going to be performing the 5 gallon fill in a minute and I will be doing it from the return we are currently speaking of

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

Here are the results of the test from the return line furthest from the pump...it took 51 seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

If my calculations are correct... my pump to the furthest return is producing 352.94 gallons per hour

 

[UncommonSense]

If my calculations are correct... my pump to the furthest return is producing 352.94 gallons per hour

Okay! So now we have some real-world numbers! — ~6gpm (observed flow) from one return! — assuming both are equal, that puts you at 12gpm total to both returns; leaving just a few gpm for your water chiller, and nothing more for further equipment additions…

this makes more sense, based on the known pump outlet and plumbing restrictions!

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

Okay! So now we have some real-world numbers! — ~6gpm (observed flow) from one return! — assuming both are equal, that puts you at 12gpm total to both returns; leaving just a few gpm for your water chiller, and nothing more for further equipment additions…

this makes more sense, based on the known pump outlet and plumbing restrictions!

So by increasing the size of the plumbing from 1" to 1.5" will that increase my flow? That's the million dollar question

 

[UncommonSense]

So by increasing the size of the plumbing from 1" to 1.5" will that increase my flow? That's the million dollar question

Short answer; yes.

—It can handle roughly 3x the flow of 1” PVC in this application!

1” schedule 40 PVC pipe: ~.83in2 cross-section interior surface area

1.5” schedule 40 PVC pipe: ~1.8in2 cross-section interior surface area

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

Thank you...send you the final numbers once I have the build completed

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

What's up my friend...do you know anything about the Neptune Trident?

 

[UncommonSense]

What's up my friend...do you know anything about the Neptune Trident?

Unfortunately, I do not! — I’ve tried to stay away from “internet of things” devices after working with them professionally 5-9 years ago, and seeing how terrible reliability was…

— this might be a good opportunity to start a new thread relative to your Trident!

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

Sounds right

 

[mcarroll]

Thank you for your input...

At this moment I have invested in all the plumbing components so I can increase from 1" to 1.5", and a new pump. I'm hoping this will payoff by increasing flow, but in the meantime I will take you advice by measuring the flow.
So it took 5.5 seconds to fill a 1 quart container. Therefore it would take 22 seconds (5.5x4) to fill a 1 gallon container. There is 3600 seconds in 1 hour. If I have done the arithmetic correctly, (according to Google), one return to my display tank is producing a total of 163.64 gallons per hour with my current 1" plumbing. Does that sound correct?

What is the target flow rate (total) that you're looking for? I don't recall if that was addressed yet. (4x to 5x turnover rate usually...). You can't properly calculate head loss without a target flow rate.

Increasing the plumbing size will definitely increase potential flow. Everything depends on the specifics though.

It would be more ideal to sample your drain flow since it is more inclusive, but at least we'd need both returns AND the chiller flow to be measured.

Unfortunately the flow data posted in your thread doesn't make sense.....shows GPH increasing as head increases. That's not right. :D

From your listing (scroll down, it's not all in the images), it appears to claim a 27 ft shutoff height. 26 / .433 = 11.2 psi.

Assuming 5 feet of vertical pumping and 20 total feet of 1" plumbing.

According to AQQA's chart, you will need "gear 12" or "gear 13", which will try to push about 2900 GPH, or 48 GPM.

By the calculator here, that level of flow will generate friction losses equal to +22.4 feet head, for a total of about 27 feet of head loss.....which is exactly your pump's advertised shutoff height.

The flow data they give only has head heights up to 7 feet, even at maximum "gear", which would generate even more friction loss.....so....???

Changing that up to 1.5" plumbing, but changing nothing else causes friction losses to drop to only 2.7 feet....or <8 feet total. (You still need to implement a couple of <1.5" restrictions due to bulkheads though, right?)

That still leaves you at the edge of the data on AQQA's chart. Without a flow curve and a better friction loss calculator, it's still hard to predict the flow you'll be seeing, but it'll be a lot more than now, which should be close to zero GPH! (Closer to zero than to 3,600!).

BTW, for a little more $ you could have a Danner or Sicce pump with reliable engineering specs...makes precision plumbing a lot more possible. E.g. a Mag 9 or 12 (≥$110) would do it.....Mag 18 at most if you want to keep the chiller in a manifold situation vs an independent loop with its own pump. (Or equivalent Sicce...)

Here are the results of the test from the return line furthest from the pump...it took 51 seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket

If my calculations are correct... my pump to the furthest return is producing 352.94 gallons per hour

If you decided you're switching pumps AND plumbing, then this is moot....(and why not just downsize the pump and keep your old plumbing?? 1" is fine for the flow rates your tank requires.)

But, I think your math is right.

So about 500-600 GPH total to the display?

Plus how much to the chiller?

...for a a total of....?

BTW, how are you filling a 5 gallon bucket from the tank's returns? Seems like that would be very awkward. Can you do the same trick to measure the drain flows in the sump?

So by increasing the size of the plumbing from 1" to 1.5" will that increase my flow? That's the million dollar question

Yes, without a doubt.

BTW, valves should generally be one-size-up from the main line to avoid throttling flow when it's wide open.....so 2" valve on 1.5" pipe. (If your valve is "full flow" or something like that, never mind....but most are not like that.)

Downsizing to a smaller pump would also be beneficial IMO. (Going down to 15 GPM/900 GPH also brings friction losses in 1" plumbing down to 2.7 feet....just like the switch to 1.5" plumbing.)

Your original pump with 3600 GPH (@ 7', if you can get it) is totally overkill for a tank this size....that would be enough flow to drive a 700 gallon tank. :)

Mag 18's are nice and quiet, BTW. A similar Sicce or Lifeguard (similar) would be even a bit quieter, and possibly a little more power efficient. All would be better options than what you started with IMO.....they at least come with engineering specs, as mentioned, as well as great warranties. (I really like all three brands.)

 

[mcarroll]

Are you familiar with the cavitation risks, plumbing complications, and starting issues associated with series plumbing pumps?

Don't be coy. Consider sharing what you now about the risks and complications if it seems to apply.

To answer, in general I'd use the same make and model of pump for both positions – just like in a parallel install. This takes care of most issues in most situations IMO. For what it's worth, I've seen it work like this.

(It's very very uncommon to use parallel or serial installs anyway...both have complicated install issues vs a standard one-pump install. I don't think anyone was recommending them, just talking about them re: the OP's request.)

we’re working with pumps that produce <10psi here… not operating at 100+psi… doubling the flow rate through 1” sch.40 by adding 10PSI of additional pressure is an unreasonable estimate….

Double the pressure is double the pressure though....which I think was the only point. The rest is math and flow charts.

And BTW, I believe with serial installs you trend toward the pump model's Qmax, not toward 2xQmax as with parallel, so you might be misunderstanding.

Actual flow is "hopefully" doubled since it was extremely restricted to begin with, but not maximum flow (Qmax)....we're just overcoming head pressure with this kind of install.

I agree, but this isn’t what OP desires…

The OP actually didn't ask to rebuild his plumbing, he asked how to get more flow with a second pump.

Also, you'll have to note I merely said how to do his request (ie serial install, not parallel), but I didn't recommend it.

More pressure (serial) is how you get more flow through the same (small) plumbing. More GPH (parallel) just generates even more friction loss....which in the OP's case was already high.

Hopefully this clears up where I was coming from when I was late to the party. ;)

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

Unfortunately, I do not! — I’ve tried to stay away from “internet of things” devices after working with them professionally 5-9 years ago, and seeing how terrible reliability was…

— this might be a good opportunity to start a new thread relative to your Trident!

Hello my friend...hope all is well. Since we last spoke I was able to repair my Trident on my own thanks to a couple of YouTube videos. I also have been working on replumbing my system. I may have run into a small problem. Using the diagram you drew up, I've run into a little snag. My sump is 18" tall. The design actually takes my return piping higher then the returns to the tank which are located at the bottom of each corner pre-filter. So once the water flow exits the manifold it will actually have to go down first before, then go up to the returns. Is that going to reduce my flow?

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

The only way I can possibly make it work is I'll have to remove the 1.25" ball valve

 

[UncommonSense]

Hello my friend...hope all is well. Since we last spoke I was able to repair my Trident on my own thanks to a couple of YouTube videos. I also have been working on replumbing my system. I may have run into a small problem. Using the diagram you drew up, I've run into a little snag. My sump is 18" tall. The design actually takes my return piping higher then the returns to the tank which are located at the bottom of each corner pre-filter. So once the water flow exits the manifold it will actually have to go down first before, then go up to the returns. Is that going to reduce my flow?

Well that’s inconvenient!

The flow reduction will be only slight, given the diameter of your plumbing!

The only way I can possibly make it work is I'll have to remove the 1.25" ball valve

Could the 1.25” ball valve go elsewhere? Or, one valve at 1” on each return line?

The valve(s) are likely going to be necessary, just so you don’t flow so much water through display returns that your display drains cannot keep up!

 

[Addicted2ACRO's]

It's a DC Pump I purchased...I can control the flow