PNS Pro Bio Users

[minus9]

I just got an order of the PNS Pro Bio and Yellosno and Ocean Magik, do you dose the whole bottle at once? Newer system, about 4 months and fighting a little dino due to low nutrient - Nitrate are around 3 and PO is .02. Thanks.

I don’t think you want to dose Probio now, as this will reduce your nutrients even more. YelloSno is fine to dose, but start low, 1/4 recommended dose. With anything new, ease into it slowly. Tell us more about your tank, fish, feedings, etc

 

[stlamarc]

As anyone tried to feed PNS Probio to fish as a Probiotics supplement? I'm trying to see if it's safe to use as a probiotics.

Thanks

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

As anyone tried to feed PNS Probio to fish as a Probiotics supplement? I'm trying to see if it's safe to use as a probiotics.

Thanks

Hi, I run Hydrospace LLC, who makes PNS ProBio. I actually just came across an interesting paper yesterday that demonstrates these bacteria (Rhodopseudomonas palustris) inhabiting the gut of wild fish. If you look around a bit on Google you'll find quite a few papers describing the use of these bacteria and other purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) as probiotics on fish and shrimp farms. Most often this is done to increase feed conversion, meaning the animal digests and assimilates more of the nutrients it consumes (while generating less waste). That could be said of lots of probiotic bacteria, including the ones used by we humans. One thing though that distinguishes Rhodopseudomonas from these other microbes like Bacillus, lactic acid bacteria, etc. is its ability to degrade cellulose (i.e., undigestible 'fiber').

That last point is especially notable for those that feed their herbivores like tangs heavily with algae-based foods (e.g., nori). While I don't get a lot of reports from users who apply the product specifically as a fish probiotic, we have heard from a couple of individuals who claimed that their tangs pooped less, and in at least one of those cases that the poop even looked different.

While I haven't heard enough reports yet to guarantee a specific outcome in terms of positive effects when using the product for that particular purpose, the scientific literature definitely paints a nice picture. Hopefully we in the marine aquarium hobby will learn more over time (I'm not afraid to admit that I'm still learning more about these bacteria every day myself).

I will say, though, that in terms of safety, you have nothing to worry about. Rhodopseudomonas has been studied and used pretty extensively as a food additive (including with humans), and there do not appear to be any concerns with its use as a probiotic.

 

[Mattiejay6]

Hi Nick.

12-24 hrs is sufficient time to have the skimmer off for this purpose.

Yes, these bacteria will remove NO3/PO4 as they grow, and then those nutrients will be exported along with bacterial biomass via your skimmer. But these bacteria do need to survive and establish themselves to grow. To establish large enough colonies for significant NO3/PO4 removal, you'll need to provide them with lots of habitable living space. This is mainly going to be an anaerobic and preferably illuminated environment (these are facultatively photosynthetic microbes). I see that you just run a HOB for filtration (no sump). Do you have a fairly deep sand bed? Or a large amount of porous biomedia in there somewhere?

The strain of Rhodopseudomonas in ProBio is exactly the same as that in Substrate Sauce, though marine aquarists might observe faster activity from the latter product as it is cultured in saltwater (i.e., it adjusts to the new environment faster). But it's also possible that in at least some cases the more aggressive nutrient sequestration might be attributable to Rhodospirillum, which is an additional PNS bacterium that is only present in Substrate Sauce.

If you're using these bacteria as a food, then adding them steadily is best. However, if you're trying to seed the tank (i.e., establish a permanent population), then it's better to add a lot at once. If you can soak the product into a suitable environment (as described above), that's even better.

Carbon dosing could definitely promote the growth of these bacteria (particularly if you normally maintain lower concentrations of dissolved organics). For that, vinegar is preferable to ethanol.

I hope that helps!

Hi Kenneth,

Could you elaborate why Vinegar verses ethanol?

Matt

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi Kenneth,

Could you elaborate why Vinegar verses ethanol?

Matt

These bacteria poorly utilize ethanol, but very much like acetate.

 

[Jesse213]

Hi, I run Hydrospace LLC, who makes PNS ProBio. I actually just came across an interesting paper yesterday that demonstrates these bacteria (Rhodopseudomonas palustris) inhabiting the gut of wild fish. If you look around a bit on Google you'll find quite a few papers describing the use of these bacteria and other purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) as probiotics on fish and shrimp farms. Most often this is done to increase feed conversion, meaning the animal digests and assimilates more of the nutrients it consumes (while generating less waste). That could be said of lots of probiotic bacteria, including the ones used by we humans. One thing though that distinguishes Rhodopseudomonas from these other microbes like Bacillus, lactic acid bacteria, etc. is its ability to degrade cellulose (i.e., undigestible 'fiber').

That last point is especially notable for those that feed their herbivores like tangs heavily with algae-based foods (e.g., nori). While I don't get a lot of reports from users who apply the product specifically as a fish probiotic, we have heard from a couple of individuals who claimed that their tangs pooped less, and in at least one of those cases that the poop even looked different.

While I haven't heard enough reports yet to guarantee a specific outcome in terms of positive effects when using the product for that particular purpose, the scientific literature definitely paints a nice picture. Hopefully we in the marine aquarium hobby will learn more over time (I'm not afraid to admit that I'm still learning more about these bacteria every day myself).

I will say, though, that in terms of safety, you have nothing to worry about. Rhodopseudomonas has been studied and used pretty extensively as a food additive (including with humans), and there do not appear to be any concerns with its use as a probiotic.

Hello Kenneth, I added substrate sauce at the recommended dosage to my tank, turned of the skimmer and the next morning (4) of my anthias, (1) flame angel and (1) powder blue tang were dead the following morning. About 50% of my fish perished. I had tested all my parameters prior to adding this product and they were within normal limits. Any idea why this would happen?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hello Kenneth, I added substrate sauce at the recommended dosage to my tank, turned of the skimmer and the next morning (4) of my anthias, (1) flame angel and (1) powder blue tang were dead the following morning. About 50% of my fish perished. I had tested all my parameters prior to adding this product and they were within normal limits. Any idea why this would happen?

I’m guessing low O2.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi Jesse. I believe the fish losses were related to some other factor (that is, not directly related to the addition of the bacteria). For one, these bacteria (Rhodopseudomonas palustris and Rhodospirillum rubrum) are not only completely harmless to fish but are even used as probiotics in hatcheries and occur naturally in the guts of wild fish. As you probably observed from your water tests, Substrate Sauce does not contain ammonia, so that could not have been an issue (not any ammonia originating from the product, anyway). These organisms are facultative anaerobes; this means that they can survive in an oxygenated environment and can indeed perform aerobic respiration, but they nonetheless highly prefer anaerobic environments and grow very poorly (i.e., slowly, if at all) in the presence of oxygen. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely (especially at the very small recommended dose, or even at an overdose) that they depleted oxygen levels. That being said, Randy's suggestion that low O2 could have been the problem is totally plausible if the skimmer was left off for a significant period of time, especially if that followed an unusually large feeding, the die-off of some animal in the tank, etc. And to be clear, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a bacterial bloom (did the water suddenly get cloudy/milky just before the event?), I just wouldn't blame these or any anaerobes as the culprits in any O2 related issue.

We have yet to receive a report about Substrate Sauce doing this, or anything like this. Even so, I'll certainly watch for any similar issues if they arise among other users. There are approximately 90 units per lot, and I'll contact you if anyone reports a similar observation (even if their unit was not from that lot). (Please DM me or post here a clear image of the white label on the back of your bottle, as well as place of purchase).

One question... Sauce is generally used for cycling (either way, it's absolutely safe whether in a cycled or uncycled system) . Since there were fish on the system I have to ask, is this system still in, or recently out of, the cycling stage? Or mature (if so, how long set up)? How long had these fish been in the system?

Thanks, hoping you're already on the path to recovery!

 

[minus9]

I'm curious as to when he added it? Morning or night? Also, if the skimmer was turned off overnight and there's a large bio load (of fish), that may cause some issues with low o2.

 

[Jimbo327]

Anyone that is culturing PNS Prodbio, does it smell bad even with the home grown kit? I find the smell of the bottled PNS Prodbio to be quite foul. My family thinks it smells like fart. For a purple non-sulfur bacteria, it sure smells like sulfur...right out of the bottle. Maybe not as strong as sulfur, but it's definitely got a stinky smell.

I've smelled other bottled bacteria, and none of them have any smell at all.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Anyone that is culturing PNS Prodbio, does it smell bad even with the home grown kit? I find the smell of the bottled PNS Prodbio to be quite foul. My family thinks it smells like fart. For a purple non-sulfur bacteria, it sure smells like sulfur...right out of the bottle. Maybe not as strong as sulfur, but it's definitely got a stinky smell.

I've smelled other bottled bacteria, and none of them have any smell at all.

From my understanding yes it does small like a big ol' fart. It's normal.

@Kenneth Wingerter

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

From my understanding yes it does small like a big ol' fart. It's normal.

@Kenneth Wingerter

Yup, actually we often describe it more specifically as beer fart haha. Not all microbial products have an odor, but these particular odors are very characteristic of PNSB cultures. Actually, ProBio smells like roses compared to the usual PNSB lab cultures, which use yeast extract in the growth media. We're currently experimenting with a couple different things that may reduce that, so long as they doesn't compromise the quality or density of the product.

 

[Jimbo327]

Does both strain of PNSB in the Substrate Sauce smell like fart?

Please make a strain that doesn't smell. I gave a bottle of the Prodbio to another local reefer, and I'm pretty sure he didn't put it into his system because he thought the stuff is bad. Which is hard to argue based on the smell.

I have to dose this at night when everyone goes to bed, but I'm afraid it will deplete my oxygen when dosed at night.

 

[ReefLegends]

The PNS home grow kit started to smell for me on day 7, by day 30 mine smelled like a skunk, my corals seem super happy after dosing. I already have no phosphate and nitrate, don't ask me why I got 2 more home grow kits. Should start them next week.

 

[Jimbo327]

You are a braver man than me. When you have the home grow kit, you tend to dose a lot...and the smell permeates through the house. I don't know how you do it. LOL. I get so many complaints and whine, and it's true, I can't even say anything back.