Potential emergency. Flashing with no visible ich.

[Aronsaquarium]

Hi,
So I’m currently 3 hours shy of being 48 hours into the second dose of prazipro.
Everything took the first dose well.
the second dose hit a little harder, and the fish had subdued appetite during the first day, but now everything in the tank looks to be happy aside from the Bicolor.
He’s been cooped up by this rock looking stressed for the last 30 Hours, not eating.
Should I be worried, or should that pass over the next day?

Everything else looks happy, and water parameters are good.

 

[Weeb]

Hi,
So I’m currently 3 hours shy of being 48 hours into the second dose of prazipro.
Everything took the first dose well.
the second dose hit a little harder, and the fish had subdued appetite during the first day, but now everything in the tank looks to be happy aside from the Bicolor.
He’s been cooped up by this rock looking stressed for the last 30 Hours, not eating.
Should I be worried, or should that pass over the next day?

Everything else looks happy, and water parameters are good.

Looks like its respiration rate is over 150. Definitely stressed.

It's a hard choice to stop the second dose of PraziPro for this one fish. The second dose is to stop hatchlings from infecting the fish. Is there a place you can put this fish, like into a QT or hospital tank? If it can be moved, then the PraziPro may be reduced.

In a tank that size, I hope there are at least two active airstones working in the tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi,
So I’m currently 3 hours shy of being 48 hours into the second dose of prazipro.
Everything took the first dose well.
the second dose hit a little harder, and the fish had subdued appetite during the first day, but now everything in the tank looks to be happy aside from the Bicolor.
He’s been cooped up by this rock looking stressed for the last 30 Hours, not eating.
Should I be worried, or should that pass over the next day?

Everything else looks happy, and water parameters are good.

The bicolor is breathing way too fast. Can you get a video of the flame angel also? I want to compare the two fish's respiration rates - since they are in the same genus, in the same tank, it would be odd if one was breathing fast and not the other.
Are you seeing any chasing/aggression with these two fish?
You have good air stones running?
Do you know the pH of the water?

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

So here are some of the other fish, they’re all completely fine it seems.
My thinking is that yesterday morning when they were all stressed he may have been dealing with some bullying on top of the stressful conditions and it pushed him to this point.

I have 3 angels in there, Flame Bicolor and Queen angel.
I was super careful how they were introduced into the tank and have kept a close eye on them.
The bicolor has been here the longest, close to a year and a half.
There are occasional short chases between them but generally get along fine together.
I think he took Prazi the hardest though, and lost his strength to hold his own ground in the tank.
That’s how I feel but I can be completely off and something else going on.

I don’t have a QT set up as of now, so quickest thing I could do was set up an in tank kinda baby fish container thing for it.
I don’t know if this was smart or stupid because I had to disturb the tank for about 20/30 min moving rocks etc to catch him.
But now I have it in the container with a little cave for it, so hopefully after the initial scare it may be able to calm down I hope

PH looks to be 8 or ever so slightly shy of 8. So it dropped a little (I think maybe more than that briefly yesterday morning) but it’s recovered a bit, and should be in the safe zone now.
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate below 10. It’s dropped from the prazi.

I have 1 air pump going plus I set the skimmer on just enough air that I get some micro bubbles in the tank but not enough to foam up in the skimmer. Just adding some oxygen around the tank.
And a wave pump facing the top of the tank with it partly open.

All in all they look comfortable with that

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Just took out the stone.. looks like it was making it a little too small. Maybe I’m wrong

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Praziquantel is well-tolerated by all fish if you dose it accurately and supply good aeration. The two common things we see is: 1) oxygen deficiency from bacteria decomposing the solvent (if used) or the prazi itself (less of an issue). 2) in fish with heavy flukes infestations, causing all of the flukes to drop off at once leaves hundreds/thousands of holes in the fish's gill and/or skin. the fish can literally bleed out. If it doesn't kill them immediately, it can cause rapid breathing due to the resulting anemia.

Here is the issue though - anything like that which would affect the bicolor, should also affect the flame, and it looks fine. the foxface is breathing a bit fast, but not too bad (perhaps that's from the tank disruption?).

Sorry - I don't have any solid resolution for you here.

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Thanks so much Jay!
So yes, yesterday morning when the tank went cloudy they were all stressed with elevated breathing.
I upped the oxygen in the tank more at that point, and as far as I understand the first day is the strongest with Prazi. So as that weakened into the beginning of its second day and the extra oxygen that fish slowly went back to normal.
The foxface may have just been upset from the disturbance then. He’s swimming around normally now picking at rocks.

I Just think the Bicolor went over the edge a little between prazi and what looks to be some bullying too from some cuts on its tail.
When they were stressed yesterday they were a little more aggressive.

I turned off the tank lights and have it in the corner tank so it can’t be pestered, hopefully that’ll calm it down.

The next few hours will probably be critical, as long as it wasn’t all eaten up internally from the flukes and it can calm down, hopefully there’s a chance it’ll make it.
I’ve had it for quite a while, it’s always been happy.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

It’s So strange..
unless he was just more infected than I knew. I’ve had him for almost a year and a half no issues
I’m not sure it’ll survive the night..

Do you think it’s better for me to just let it out?
It won’t have the energy to hold its ground against the other fish, so thought this may be better. But he’s been in this position for a few hours so not sure this is any better..

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It’s So strange..
unless he was just more infected than I knew. I’ve had him for almost a year and a half no issues
I’m not sure it’ll survive the night..

Do you think it’s better for me to just let it out?
It won’t have the energy to hold its ground against the other fish, so thought this may be better. But he’s been in this position for a few hours so not sure this is any better..

Sorry - just seeing your post this morning.

In reviewing the post, I saw something - you dosed Cupramine at a bit under 1 ppm? That is a double dose, it should be dosed at 0.50 ppm, with a maximum of 0.60 ppm - that's probably why the flame didn't tolerate it well.

I cannot figure out what would cause this in a long term captive bicolor like this, without also affecting other fish. We should probably conclude that it is something unique to this fish, and not contagious. Bicolors just don't have any known sensitivity to praziquantel, I've used it on them with no issues.

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Yeah it’s a sad day..
It’s obviously not going to make it.
Should I take it out to shorten it’s pain, or let it pass on in its place?

It’s really strange. He was super active and completely happy the last year and a half right up until 2 nights ago.
I’ll keep an eye everything else, but they’re looking good.

So try regards to copper. So that’s what I thought originally.
Then when I went to LFS to test the first time I was dosing quite a while back they said I needed to do more.. closer to 1.
Another case of had advice I guess. Though all the other fish tolerated that quite well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah it’s a sad day..
It’s obviously not going to make it.
Should I take it out to shorten it’s pain, or let it pass on in its place?

It’s really strange. He was super active and completely happy the last year and a half right up until 2 nights ago.
I’ll keep an eye everything else, but they’re looking good.

So try regards to copper. So that’s what I thought originally.
Then when I went to LFS to test the first time I was dosing quite a while back they said I needed to do more.. closer to 1.
Another case of had advice I guess. Though all the other fish tolerated that quite well.

Sorry to see. One thing, when it dies, if you get to it soon, take a look at its gills - let me know if they are red, pink or white (or take a picture of them).

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Sorry to see. One thing, when it dies, if you get to it soon, take a look at its gills - let me know if they are red, pink or white (or take a picture of them).

Jay

Yeah was a sad morning..
So I took it out right before it passed, it was barely breathing at that point and just in case there was anything bad inside it I didn’t want to risk anything coming out.

I actually buried it before I saw this message so I can technically go get it and take a picture.
I didn’t take photos from inside the gills but I did take a couple from the outside so maybe this will help?

It kinda looks pinkish from the outside and some sort of pink spot above the gills.
And I think the eyes went a touch cloudy in the last couple hours. Seems clear on one pic..

I can only think of a few rational reasons.
One being my Queen angle and it didn’t get along very well. They’re same sort of shape and coloring. And both have the strip by the eye.
When the Bicolor was healthy it didn’t matter it would just hang around different parts of the tank and things were pretty peaceful. But I think the second the tank was stressed it was pushed over the edge maybe.
Also once in a while it would make a long brown stringy poop. It made a super long one the day before. But generally that’s not a cause for concern as long as it’s not white. But maybe the combination of an upset stomach and all the above did it together..
Idk..

 

[Aronsaquarium]

I also Just did a 25% water change and out the skimmer back on (low). It’s been over 72 hours now since the second dose.
So hopefully I should be done with it.
I’ll keep a close eye

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry - outside of the gills doesn't tell me much.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yeah was a sad morning..
So I took it out right before it passed, it was barely breathing at that point and just in case there was anything bad inside it I didn’t want to risk anything coming out.

I actually buried it before I saw this message so I can technically go get it and take a picture.
I didn’t take photos from inside the gills but I did take a couple from the outside so maybe this will help?

It kinda looks pinkish from the outside and some sort of pink spot above the gills.
And I think the eyes went a touch cloudy in the last couple hours. Seems clear on one pic..

I can only think of a few rational reasons.
One being my Queen angle and it didn’t get along very well. They’re same sort of shape and coloring. And both have the strip by the eye.
When the Bicolor was healthy it didn’t matter it would just hang around different parts of the tank and things were pretty peaceful. But I think the second the tank was stressed it was pushed over the edge maybe.
Also once in a while it would make a long brown stringy poop. It made a super long one the day before. But generally that’s not a cause for concern as long as it’s not white. But maybe the combination of an upset stomach and all the above did it together..
Idk..

I too just saw this post and sorry to see outcome. Bicolor themselves are very challenging and should be sold as experts only or for a well established tank. They sometimes eat at LFS and soon shut down and deteriorate.
I agree with jay and suspect Overdosing and for future needs would recommend coppersafe which is a safer and chelated form of copper treatment.
be sure to monitor water parameters with RELIABLE test kits as I see you have a basic, non reef ready tank with mechanical filters and a protein skimmer. While skimmer helps, the filter you have polishes the water well but you have limited biological and chemical means to break down waster and convert waste which warrants monitoring of water quality.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

I too just saw this post and sorry to see outcome. Bicolor themselves are very challenging and should be sold as experts only or for a well established tank. They sometimes eat at LFS and soon shut down and deteriorate.
I agree with jay and suspect Overdosing and for future needs would recommend coppersafe which is a safer and chelated form of copper treatment.
be sure to monitor water parameters with RELIABLE test kits as I see you have a basic, non reef ready tank with mechanical filters and a protein skimmer. While skimmer helps, the filter you have polishes the water well but you have limited biological and chemical means to break down waster and convert waste which warrants monitoring of water quality.

Jay was talking about 2 separate things.

The copper that was high was for a separate quarantine tank for another fish.. separate from this issue.

I’ve had the Bicolor for close to a year and a half in a well established tank. It was a process with the bicolor when I got it forsure. I’d definitely agree that it’s an expert only fish, and more importantly you have to be able to dedicate time for it.
I got it eating everything from Mysis, brine to flakes and pellets over the course of about a month. But It was a delicate process and that was again about a year and a half ago.
He was super happy since, I got him nice a chubby. Thankfully I haven’t lost a fish in about as long as I had him. Until now..
So it was upsetting and unexpected. But I think it was several factors that pushed him over the edge.. between prazi, some slight bullying that got worse during prazi treatment. And seems like its stomach had some issues. any one or 2 of those combined he would have been fine but together it pushed him over I think.
It was a strong one, I feed a nice variety of foods and Vitamins. It fought in that condition for 36 hours before it died. Wasn’t out in 2 hours sort of thing..

In terms of the way I run the tank.
So yes I’ve always been of the opinion with filters that they work well you just have to keep a good eye on things.
I have a ton if biological media, stones etc in there. Together they can handle a serious amount of waste. Much more than what I have in the tank now.
The only downside is Nitrates can climb up quicker and higher than with a filter sock system which is the main difference with a sump.
So that means I’m super religious on weekly water changes to keep that at a good level.
So it’s possibly making the work load a touch harder for me. But also a simpler system to watch over.. pluses and minuses.