Potter’s Angelfish pair

[mjreefs]

Hi all

After my “successful” pairing of scribbled angelfish (have yet to see the larger one change colors/patterns), I was thinking of having my own pair of dwarf angels as well. I’m currently looking at the Potter’s as a pair, as I already have a flame angel and it is extremely rare for me to find a smaller specimen. But even if there is a small specimen coming around, given the turnaround time of my QT (2 months), it might turn into a male. The only problem I have with dwarf angels is this: unlike large angels where it is possible to have 2-3” difference in sizing, for dwarf angels it is usually down to a 0.5”-1” difference. On top of that, I really have a hard time grasping sex differences of M/F dwarf angels. So how do you guys suggest I go about this one? Thanks all!

 

[scchase]

Luckily Potters are one of the easiest to sex, if you can look at a few at once you will be able to see the difference. The males have a substantial more about of blue on them, probably 2-3 times as much on the sides, on the females it is just a stripe whereas the males it is nearly the entire bottom half of the fish. Also in this species all the small ones I have ever seen are still females, it seems like the males get substantially larger IME

 

[ca1ore]

My favorite dwarf .... I have a female (bottom) but having a hard time finding a male.

 

[scchase]

My favorite dwarf .... I have a female (bottom) but having a hard time finding a male.

Perfect example of the difference, really outside of Genicanthus, Scribbleds and Interuptus they are the next most easily distinguished based on color.

 

[Nburg's Reef]

Man, I miss my potters. I had one for about three years and sold him when I tore that tank down

 

[Huff747]

A little bit of luck never hurts either but the size and color difference worked for me.

 

[mjreefs]

Luckily Potters are one of the easiest to sex, if you can look at a few at once you will be able to see the difference. The males have a substantial more about of blue on them, probably 2-3 times as much on the sides, on the females it is just a stripe whereas the males it is nearly the entire bottom half of the fish. Also in this species all the small ones I have ever seen are still females, it seems like the males get substantially larger IME

My favorite dwarf .... I have a female (bottom) but having a hard time finding a male.

A little bit of luck never hurts either but the size and color difference worked for me.

Thanks all for your responses!
Now I’m curious as what is the best way to get things done: is it better to have 2 females with say a 0.5” difference or a male + female? How do you bring them to eat? I’ve heard (and I am not quite sure) that larger specimens are harder to get to eat prepared foods, am I right? Or is it the other way around?

 

[OrionN]

Pairing dwarf angels are easy. Just put two small ones together and with time we will have a pair. Kinda like clown fish. I paired / form harem of multiple Flame angels. There is really nothing to it.
OP was worrying about small Flame Angel turn male during 2 month QT. Don’t worry, it will take longer than that, by herself in less than optimal care in QT.
No problem even with same size females or Juveniles. In a large enough size tanks, even place two males will work. At least one study and multiple Reefers have documented that male flame angels will change back to Female when face with a more dominate male.

 

[mjreefs]

Pairing dwarf angels are easy. Just put two small ones together and with time we will have a pair. Kinda like clown fish. I paired / form harem of multiple Flame angels. There is really nothing to it.
OP was worrying about small Flame Angel turn male during 2 month QT. Don’t worry, it will take longer than that, by herself in less than optimal care in QT.
No problem even with same size females or Juveniles. In a large enough size tanks, even place two males will work. At least one study and multiple Reefers have documented that male flame angels will change back to Female when face with a more dominate male.

yeah I think I’ve read that study, but I’m a little biased towards a Potter’s pair than a Flame pair. Unless it is possible to have both pairs coexisting? I have an 8x2x2 240 gallon tank. Tankmates include large angelfish and tangs.

 

[OrionN]

Prob not recommended to have 2 pairs. The two males will not take kindly to each other.

 

[aherre07]

In a similar sized tank I used to have a pair of flame and flamebacks together. No issues plenty of hiding spots and plenty of food help

 

[OrionN]

In a similar sized tank I used to have a pair of flame and flamebacks together. No issues plenty of hiding spots and plenty of food help

Having two angels is not the same as having a male and female pair. While there is not a way for me to confirm it, I think one of the two “pair” that you have is most likely two female.
I have had harem of 1 male Flame back and three females, two Cherub and on Flame back. The male spawned with all three females.

 

[JumboShrimp]

@mjreefs , would love to see a photo or two of your 8-foot tank.

 

[OrionN]

yeah I think I’ve read that study, but I’m a little biased towards a Potter’s pair than a Flame pair. Unless it is possible to have both pairs coexisting? I have an 8x2x2 240 gallon tank. Tankmates include large angelfish and tangs.

@mjreefs ,
May I temped you with pictures of my Male Flame Angel? both coloration and nuptial coloration.
Normal

Near nuptial coloration

Nuptial coloration of the Male Flame angel

 

[mjreefs]

Prob not recommended to have 2 pairs. The two males will not take kindly to each other.

Having two angels is not the same as having a male and female pair. While there is not a way for me to confirm it, I think one of the two “pair” that you have is most likely two female.
I have had harem of 1 male Flame back and three females, two Cherub and on Flame back. The male spawned with all three females.

So if ever I get a small juvenile/female potter’s only, the flame will turn male? Is this similar to the Chaetodontoplus angels (scribbled, personifer, blueline, etc) that if there are two Chaetodontoplus angels (regardless of species, example: blueline + scribbled), the larger of the two will become male?

 

[OrionN]

So if ever I get a small juvenile/female potter’s only, the flame will turn male? Is this similar to the Chaetodontoplus angels (scribbled, personifer, blueline, etc) that if there are two Chaetodontoplus angels (regardless of species, example: blueline + scribbled), the larger of the two will become male?

I am not sure. Cherub and Flame back are in the same clade, while Flame and Potter are not. I don't know for sure the interaction between Potter and Flame. Maybe they are different enough where the two males won't kill each other, but maybe they will.
A few day/week ago somebody posted that their dwarf angels was doing fine with each other, then one day one keep on chasing and try to kill the other. I suspect that there was a male in the tank, then the second one turn male and war happen. That is one very logical explanation, but there is no way I know if that is true for sure.

 

[Neoalchemist]

A little bit of luck never hurts either but the size and color difference worked for me.

1st question, Do you find that he harasess her too much?
2nd question, what would you say based on behavior would be the minimum tank size for a pair?
Thanks.

 

[Huff747]

1st question, Do you find that he harasess her too much?
2nd question, what would you say based on behavior would be the minimum tank size for a pair?
Thanks.

1-they pretty much ignore each other all day until the t5s shut off and the LEDs start to ramp down. So I don’t see her getting harassed too much.

2-not sure I have an answer for that one. My tank is ~160 gallons and they frequently will be grazing on the same rock. There was a phase where he was being a jerk but in hindsight perhaps that was when they were working out the dominance and transition? I was a little worried during that time I’d need to separate them but neither was really looking bad there was just some chasing. Then next thing I knew they were dancing in the evenings and I haven’t seen any issues since.

 

[Neoalchemist]

1-they pretty much ignore each other all day until the t5s shut off and the LEDs start to ramp down. So I don’t see her getting harassed too much.

2-not sure I have an answer for that one. My tank is ~160 gallons and they frequently will be grazing on the same rock. There was a phase where he was being a jerk but in hindsight perhaps that was when they were working out the dominance and transition? I was a little worried during that time I’d need to separate them but neither was really looking bad there was just some chasing. Then next thing I knew they were dancing in the evenings and I haven’t seen any issues since.

Thanks for that. I have big beautiful male that Im thinking about finding a mate for. I plan on replacing my 90 with a 150 soon and I might take the chance when the fish go in the new tank.

 

[OrionN]

The same with Flame angels. They often different to each other. When two meet, the less dominant one would change course (when male-female, or female-female cross path). Occasionally there is a peck or hip, but they don't chase each other to any significant degree. When the light going down for the evening, the male would court the female by swimming and display all his fins, change color. In my tank he court all three females at the same time, going after one then the other. They spawned almost one right after the other. It is a a lot of work for the male.
For Flame Angels a 65 gal is enough for 2-3 fish harem. Potter is a larger fish so maybe 75-90 gal minimal for a harem.
FWIW, I had a Potter angel many years ago, but in the last 20+ years, I have keep Flame Angels