PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

[gobble]

I've used Prime for a couple weeks now while doing TTM on ALL of my fish (including 10 tangs) because of an ich outbreak.

This stuff is a miracle product. I don't know what I would have done without it. I would have spent hundreds of dollars on Bio Spira while trying to juggle the 6 tanks I have going in my basement. With Prime I've been doing water changes when the water gets cloudy but don't have to worry about ammonia poisoning.

As my fish migrate through TTM I've been collecting them in a 65 gallon tank I just bought from PetSmart to run while my display is fallow. I have a Seneye monitor in the 65 gallon. The Seneye is able to differentiate NH3 from NH4, so I can see the effect Prime has on NH3. It's amazing. I'll watch ammonia go up to around .006 mg/l then dose 7 ml of Prime and the NH3 will travel right back down to near zero. Yes I have to dose every day or two, but the stuff is so cheap it costs near nothing.

Knowing it works with Copper Power is another win. I don't know why anyone would spend $20 a bottle on Bio Spira when this stuff is available.

 

[gobble]

Sorry if this makes the thread long, but I found my Seneye results interesting. I dosed Prime at about 6:30 last night. It's a 65 gallon tank with about 6 good sized tangs and 4 other fish. I'm having trouble saving more than this to my clipboard, but the level hit .002 at 5:12 am and stayed there until I fed the fish at 11:30 this morning.

23/12/2019 2:42 AM	0.003
23/12/2019 2:12 AM	0.003
23/12/2019 1:42 AM	0.003
23/12/2019 1:12 AM	0.003
23/12/2019 12:42 AM	0.004
23/12/2019 12:12 AM	0.004
22/12/2019 11:42 PM	0.004
22/12/2019 11:12 PM	0.004
22/12/2019 10:42 PM	0.005
22/12/2019 10:12 PM	0.005
22/12/2019 9:42 PM	0.006
22/12/2019 9:12 PM	0.006
22/12/2019 8:42 PM	0.006
22/12/2019 8:20 PM	0.007
22/12/2019 7:42 PM	0.007
22/12/2019 7:12 PM	0.007
22/12/2019 6:42 PM	0.008
22/12/2019 6:12 PM	0.007

 

[Dierks]

Thank you for sharing this @gobble these are real numbers and we are thankful for people that are willing to share their information. With real numbers people can see the true effect of Prime and I am with you in regards to how well this stuff does it's job!

 

[Big G]

Ironic isn't it that Seachem's Prime cannot be used with Seachem's Cupramine. Pushing more business to the chelated coppers (Copper Power, Coppersafe) not made by them. Irony can be cruel. Good for us though!

 

[SPSReeferMI]

First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

Thank you for your work on this! I have two follow up questions:

1.) Would you suspect that this does apply to Copper Power and Amquel Plus? I understand that you tested Prime + CP already.
2.) Can I measure the impact on the copper with the Hanna Copper colorimeter? I assume that I would wait an hour or two after both Amquel and CP are in the same tank.

Thanks!

 

[reefin_with_the_fam]

Wow thank you so much for your findings! Very VERY good to know if I need it in an emergency. Thanks as always!!

 

[dyno]

Thank you for sharing your results with us. I am in a situation where copper power and prime are needed and this takes a weight off my sholders. How effective is this stuff against Nitrite? Did you have Nitrite’s in your Q-Tank?

 

[Reef GE]

I never did any water changes, just dosed Prime every 24 hours for 30 days. The water did get very cloudy due to Prime binding so much ammonia.

However, I strongly advocate always using a biofilter in QT and reserving Prime for emergency use. Prime can actually work with nitrifying bacteria in a sense, converting ammonia to a non-toxic form which allows the biofilter to more efficiently remove it. However, without a working biofilter in place to remove it the ammonia will be released back into the water after 24-48 hours (as per Seachem.)

I was told that the copper meds (any brand) will kill all nitrifying bacteria in a bio filter. According to your post, however, this is not the case. Setting up a QT for (9) marine fish coming as 'gift' from friend via post. He told me that a bio filter won't do the job because the copper kills all the bacteria. I just have to do water changes to keep ammonia down, etc.

2nd question: which test kit do you use to test ammonia. My friend also told me that ammonia test kits will give false reads when using copper meds. He told me Seachem Ammonia Alarm will give true read when used with Seachem copper.

 

[StPatrick89]

First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

Whew, this just EASED my mind

 

[nmo0ory]

amazing
can i use safe as well ?
its same as prime right ?
also i have nox-ich can i use it with it ?
if i did use prime or safe i don't need to do water change ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Whew, this just EASED my mind

Both copper power and coppersafe also have amines in them, as evidenced by a high ammonia reading after dosing. I’m not as confident that reducing agents are safe for any of the 3 main copper products. The ammonia test won’t show if the bond is being broken, so the only real way to know if there is an issue is to run bioassays and see if it harms the fish.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

amazing
can i use safe as well ?
its same as prime right ?
also i have nox-ich can i use it with it ?
if i did use prime or safe i don't need to do water change ?

I don’t like to use Nox-Ich in marine systems. I’ve not used “safe”, who makes it?
Jay

 

[nmo0ory]

I don’t like to use Nox-Ich in marine systems. I’ve not used “safe”, who makes it?
Jay

it is from seachem

Seachem - Safe

www.seachem.com

but its in form of powder
i want to find a way to reduce the ammonia as the water change is very expensive if i am holding lot of fish

 

[sohal tang]

First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

All three products use amines as a binding agent, so humblefish is incorrect in that regard. It is safer not to use any reducing agents with these three products.
Jay

 

[jmoney7]

7/13/2023 Note: There is still some question in my mind about using any of the three copper products (Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe) with an EXCESS of any reducing agents. These can include formalin, sodium thiosulfate, Prime or possibly even Amquel. Anything that can break the amine-copper bond can release more toxic ionic copper into the water. You will NOT see an increase in copper from your test kits as mentioned below, the free copper tests the same, it is just more toxic.

Jay Hemdal


First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

I’m doing this rn. I just set up a 13 gallon qt tank running copper power and I have 5 fish in it so I need a good way to control ammonia. I can use this every 24 hours and not have to do a water change while they are in qt. I prob will do a water change at some point but don’t have the time to do one every day.