Treating a complete system purchase months later

[Kooma]

Hey all, I have a bit of a story and would love your input.

I purchased a complete system from a local reefer, it was a 150 gallon FOWLR system with lots of fish and plenty of nice rock and equipment. I moved the fish into a 36x18x24 holding tank, with about half the rock in the tank and the rest in a heated and circulated tote. This was June 21st of this year. In the tank I have a yellow tang, and desjardini, a flame angel, firefish, anthias, a hippo, and a threadfin. I am in the process of setting up a 225 gallon 72x30x24 but have been delayed due to a issue with the steel stand being flat on top.

About 2 months after moving them in I noticed that my yellow tang was showing white spots, mucus spots and ich. I monitored for a couple days and as he got worse I made the call to treat with copper power. I ordered CP, a hanna, and removed equipment I didnt want to have copper contaminated as well as the rock in the display. I setup an airstone for outside air and started dosing CP to bring it up slowly. The tank went through a bacterial bloom for about 4-5 days and then cleared up. Meanwhile I was bringing up the CP, first 1.5, then 2.0, and I have been hovering around 2.15 for the last few weeks. The spots dropped from the tang in about 3-4 days before hitting 2.0 and everyone has been doing well since.

Recently I noted my desjardini has been breathing faster than I recall, and speaking to a local reefer we suspected gill flukes. I FW dipped him for 4 minutes and he seemed happier than before which was nice. I have since seen my hippo flashing on the bottom, my threadfin sometimes seems to shake his head, and my yellow tang now has a spot again. I am intending to treat for flukes after copper, but was surprised to see a spot on the yellow tang last night. I confirmed last night the CP was at 2.11 and Ive dosed it to bump to 2.15 (I am trying to aim between humbles 2.0 minimum and 2.25 over the 30 days due to the butterfly and firefish. I performed a 25 gallon WC last night (1.023 as tank, 2.15 in the mix) to help with the nitrates.

During the first two weeks I had a ammonia badge (Showing Alert) and was doing water changes to manage ammonia, eventually picking up Prime and Stability, adding in plastic bioballs to the sump and have seen the badge go yellow as the tank cycled (surprisingly). I dosed prime and stability daily, I now dose prime every 2 days as a precaution.

What is going on with this yellow tang? He has one spot, the area was a bit red then went away 20 minutes later but the spot remained, like a mucus spot maybe. Ill try to grab some photos of the fish tonight for easier diagnosis. Do I just need to bump the tank to 2.5 and hold it for 30? If they have been in 2.15 for 2.5 weeks, is this going to stress anyone or do i need to give them a break from the copper for a few days?

I also need to find something for flukes in Canada. We cant get prazi that I can tell..

 

[Jekyl]

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is the site recommended information

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey all, I have a bit of a story and would love your input.

I purchased a complete system from a local reefer, it was a 150 gallon FOWLR system with lots of fish and plenty of nice rock and equipment. I moved the fish into a 36x18x24 holding tank, with about half the rock in the tank and the rest in a heated and circulated tote. This was June 21st of this year. In the tank I have a yellow tang, and desjardini, a flame angel, firefish, anthias, a hippo, and a threadfin. I am in the process of setting up a 225 gallon 72x30x24 but have been delayed due to a issue with the steel stand being flat on top.

About 2 months after moving them in I noticed that my yellow tang was showing white spots, mucus spots and ich. I monitored for a couple days and as he got worse I made the call to treat with copper power. I ordered CP, a hanna, and removed equipment I didnt want to have copper contaminated as well as the rock in the display. I setup an airstone for outside air and started dosing CP to bring it up slowly. The tank went through a bacterial bloom for about 4-5 days and then cleared up. Meanwhile I was bringing up the CP, first 1.5, then 2.0, and I have been hovering around 2.15 for the last few weeks. The spots dropped from the tang in about 3-4 days before hitting 2.0 and everyone has been doing well since.

Recently I noted my desjardini has been breathing faster than I recall, and speaking to a local reefer we suspected gill flukes. I FW dipped him for 4 minutes and he seemed happier than before which was nice. I have since seen my hippo flashing on the bottom, my threadfin sometimes seems to shake his head, and my yellow tang now has a spot again. I am intending to treat for flukes after copper, but was surprised to see a spot on the yellow tang last night. I confirmed last night the CP was at 2.11 and Ive dosed it to bump to 2.15 (I am trying to aim between humbles 2.0 minimum and 2.25 over the 30 days due to the butterfly and firefish. I performed a 25 gallon WC last night (1.023 as tank, 2.15 in the mix) to help with the nitrates.

During the first two weeks I had a ammonia badge (Showing Alert) and was doing water changes to manage ammonia, eventually picking up Prime and Stability, adding in plastic bioballs to the sump and have seen the badge go yellow as the tank cycled (surprisingly). I dosed prime and stability daily, I now dose prime every 2 days as a precaution.

What is going on with this yellow tang? He has one spot, the area was a bit red then went away 20 minutes later but the spot remained, like a mucus spot maybe. Ill try to grab some photos of the fish tonight for easier diagnosis. Do I just need to bump the tank to 2.5 and hold it for 30? If they have been in 2.15 for 2.5 weeks, is this going to stress anyone or do i need to give them a break from the copper for a few days?

I also need to find something for flukes in Canada. We cant get prazi that I can tell..

I have no faith in ammonia alert especially after two weeks of use and encourage you to invest in reliable kits such as Salifert or Hanna brand. Additionally I will not use an $8 tester to sustain $100' in fish livestock
Please post a video of at least 30 seconds of fish in question under bright white lighting - No blue. Whether ich or velvet, you will; want to place them in separate tank and treat with coppersafe or copper power at 2.25 ppm for a Full 30 days with air stone added and keep an eye on ammonia levels with a RELIABLE ammonia test kit
Do NOT dose prime to tank but rather to water when mixed as its great for treatment of chlorine and such but does not remove ammonia as bottle implies.

 

[Kooma]

I have no faith in ammonia alert especially after two weeks of use and encourage you to invest in reliable kits such as Salifert or Hanna brand. Additionally I will not use an $8 tester to sustain $100' in fish livestock
Please post a video of at least 30 seconds of fish in question under bright white lighting - No blue. Whether ich or velvet, you will; want to place them in separate tank and treat with coppersafe or copper power at 2.25 ppm for a Full 30 days with air stone added and keep an eye on ammonia levels with a RELIABLE ammonia test kit
Do NOT dose prime to tank but rather to water when mixed as its great for treatment of chlorine and such but does not remove ammonia as bottle implies.

I am also testing with salifert for ammonia. Copper Power binds with ammonia and gives false results, usually around 0.4-0.5. (ref here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/post-8878715). I have seen this with my salifert test kit for the last 2+ weeks, the fish should be dead if it were accurate. With the badge change, the salifert test has remained 0.5ish. I precautionarily dose prime every 48 hours as humble showed it doesn't affect chelated copper and ammonia testing with copper is shown to be inaccurate (Ref: https://humble.fish/community/threads/psa-prime-safe-to-use-with-copper-power.193/).

The fish are in a bare bottom empty display with 4" PVC pipes (Removed all rock from the tank, no sand) and have been in copper power at 2.15 for almost 3 weeks now. They have two air stones in the tank as well with fresh air pulled from outside by the pump. I'll raise it to 2.25 and reset my 30 days if needed.

Video to come tonight.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am also testing with salifert for ammonia. Copper Power binds with ammonia and gives false results, usually around 0.4-0.5. (ref here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/post-8878715). I have seen this with my salifert test kit for the last 2+ weeks, the fish should be dead if it were accurate. With the badge change, the salifert test has remained 0.5ish. I precautionarily dose prime every 48 hours as humble showed it doesn't affect chelated copper and ammonia testing with copper is shown to be inaccurate (Ref: https://humble.fish/community/threads/psa-prime-safe-to-use-with-copper-power.193/).

The fish are in a bare bottom empty display with 4" PVC pipes (Removed all rock from the tank, no sand) and have been in copper power at 2.15 for almost 3 weeks now. They have two air stones in the tank as well with fresh air pulled from outside by the pump. I'll raise it to 2.25 and reset my 30 days if needed.

Video to come tonight.

Prime through tests done on this site shows it does not reduce/remove ammonia. Ammonia range, you want .025 or below. Small water changes or even daily 2-3 gallon changes will reduce ammonia levels

 

[vancouverredsea350]

Hey all, I have a bit of a story and would love your input.

I purchased a complete system from a local reefer, it was a 150 gallon FOWLR system with lots of fish and plenty of nice rock and equipment. I moved the fish into a 36x18x24 holding tank, with about half the rock in the tank and the rest in a heated and circulated tote. This was June 21st of this year. In the tank I have a yellow tang, and desjardini, a flame angel, firefish, anthias, a hippo, and a threadfin. I am in the process of setting up a 225 gallon 72x30x24 but have been delayed due to a issue with the steel stand being flat on top.

About 2 months after moving them in I noticed that my yellow tang was showing white spots, mucus spots and ich. I monitored for a couple days and as he got worse I made the call to treat with copper power. I ordered CP, a hanna, and removed equipment I didnt want to have copper contaminated as well as the rock in the display. I setup an airstone for outside air and started dosing CP to bring it up slowly. The tank went through a bacterial bloom for about 4-5 days and then cleared up. Meanwhile I was bringing up the CP, first 1.5, then 2.0, and I have been hovering around 2.15 for the last few weeks. The spots dropped from the tang in about 3-4 days before hitting 2.0 and everyone has been doing well since.

Recently I noted my desjardini has been breathing faster than I recall, and speaking to a local reefer we suspected gill flukes. I FW dipped him for 4 minutes and he seemed happier than before which was nice. I have since seen my hippo flashing on the bottom, my threadfin sometimes seems to shake his head, and my yellow tang now has a spot again. I am intending to treat for flukes after copper, but was surprised to see a spot on the yellow tang last night. I confirmed last night the CP was at 2.11 and Ive dosed it to bump to 2.15 (I am trying to aim between humbles 2.0 minimum and 2.25 over the 30 days due to the butterfly and firefish. I performed a 25 gallon WC last night (1.023 as tank, 2.15 in the mix) to help with the nitrates.

During the first two weeks I had a ammonia badge (Showing Alert) and was doing water changes to manage ammonia, eventually picking up Prime and Stability, adding in plastic bioballs to the sump and have seen the badge go yellow as the tank cycled (surprisingly). I dosed prime and stability daily, I now dose prime every 2 days as a precaution.

What is going on with this yellow tang? He has one spot, the area was a bit red then went away 20 minutes later but the spot remained, like a mucus spot maybe. Ill try to grab some photos of the fish tonight for easier diagnosis. Do I just need to bump the tank to 2.5 and hold it for 30? If they have been in 2.15 for 2.5 weeks, is this going to stress anyone or do i need to give them a break from the copper for a few days?

I also need to find something for flukes in Canada. We cant get prazi that I can tell..

You can purchase off Amazon.com and have it delivered to Canada

 

[Kooma]

Prime through tests done on this site shows it does not reduce/remove ammonia. Ammonia range, you want .025 or below. Small water changes or even daily 2-3 gallon changes will reduce ammonia levels

Do you have any documentation of this? Prime is marketed as a ammonia to ammonium converter, I am curious what has been found about it since as many use it to manage free ammonia in their QT systems.

You can purchase off Amazon.com and have it delivered to Canada

Searching Amazon, thanks

 

[vetteguy53081]

Do you have any documentation of this? Prime is marketed as a ammonia to ammonium converter, I am curious what has been found about it since as many use it to manage free ammonia in their QT systems.


Searching Amazon, thanks

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Kooma]

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

Thats a great test to know. I can say I didn't see an improvement in my ammonia badge until I added my bioballs to the sump and started dosing stability. About a week later I spotted the badge yellow and it has been since. Salifert test still shows 0.5 though.

What can we trust?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thats a great test to know. I can say I didn't see an improvement in my ammonia badge until I added my bioballs to the sump and started dosing stability. About a week later I spotted the badge yellow and it has been since. Salifert test still shows 0.5 though.

What can we trust?

My faith in salifert and 0.5 is for a safe high, but no higher

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am also testing with salifert for ammonia. Copper Power binds with ammonia and gives false results, usually around 0.4-0.5. (ref here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/post-8878715). I have seen this with my salifert test kit for the last 2+ weeks, the fish should be dead if it were accurate. With the badge change, the salifert test has remained 0.5ish. I precautionarily dose prime every 48 hours as humble showed it doesn't affect chelated copper and ammonia testing with copper is shown to be inaccurate (Ref: https://humble.fish/community/threads/psa-prime-safe-to-use-with-copper-power.193/).

The fish are in a bare bottom empty display with 4" PVC pipes (Removed all rock from the tank, no sand) and have been in copper power at 2.15 for almost 3 weeks now. They have two air stones in the tank as well with fresh air pulled from outside by the pump. I'll raise it to 2.25 and reset my 30 days if needed.

Video to come tonight.

Correct - Copper Power give around 0.50 ammonia as a false positive. Prime is not a good way to manage ammonia, I prefer Amquel.

However, since you pulled the majority of your active biomedia, what is left to assimilate the ammonia being produced by the fish?

Sounds like you're going to need to treat for flukes. If this is a true FOWLR tank (no inverts) you can go with hyposalinity to control both flukes AND ich.

 

[Kooma]

At the moment all rock is removed and I was planning to let it sit in the heated tote without fish for the 76 days suggested. I added bioballs and have been dosing bacteria, my badge since cleared which is aware can be questionable to trust.

Why am I seeing spots in the middle of my treatment on the yellow tang?

 

[MnFish1]

Thats a great test to know. I can say I didn't see an improvement in my ammonia badge until I added my bioballs to the sump and started dosing stability. About a week later I spotted the badge yellow and it has been since. Salifert test still shows 0.5 though.

What can we trust?

I think you can trust the alert badge if it's 'normal'. The alert badge measures NH3, the other tests measure NH3 + NH4. One issue is that some copper products can effect.

Second - Just a quick comment - When you post - and you're using an abbreviation - it's very easy to get mixed up when you use an abbreviation that has more than one meaning. In this case CP can be either Copper Power or Chloroquine PO4. And both are used for parasites.

Prime does not remove ammonia and in fact for 24-48 hours you will see elevated ammonia - even if the ammonia level has fallien. FWIW - you want a total ammonia <0.25 ppm.

During Treatment ich comes and goes - and over the 30 days you should be seeing less and less spots. It is also possible that your copper levels are not staying in range.

Good luck with your fish

 

[Jay Hemdal]

At the moment all rock is removed and I was planning to let it sit in the heated tote without fish for the 76 days suggested. I added bioballs and have been dosing bacteria, my badge since cleared which is aware can be questionable to trust.

Why am I seeing spots in the middle of my treatment on the yellow tang?

The spots might not be ich, could be just mucus plugs. If you can post a clear video under white light, I might be able to tell which.