Questions about Tank Transfer Method QT?

[taylormaximus]

So some brief backstory here, I set up my first saltwater tank about 6 weeks ago, got it cycled and added my first fish last week (firefish goby). I decided to forgo QT for the first fish fully aware of the potential consequences of this, figuring I'd get lucky with my first fish and I'd get my QT ready for all my next fish.

To my complete lack of surprise, my firefish rewarded me by almost instantly developing ich. So I'll be running hypo for a month or two to fix that and hopefully eliminate any ich added to the system.


Backstory over, my plan now after fixing all my mistakes so far is to do hybrid tank transfer with peroxide dips for all my future fish (I'm in Canada so meds like prazi and general cure seem to be nonexistent, and even copper is pretty hard to come by).

Despite mountains of research I'm clearly quite new to the hobby, and so I had a couple of questions about TTM I was hoping @Humblefish or some other experienced reefers could answer:

1. I've heard it said that it's not a huge deal if a few drops of water get transferred when moving the fish, because after 4 transfers the odds of any contaminated water making it through is near zero. With that logic, couldn't one use a single tank for tank transfer, get the fish to a temporary bucket and quickly sterilize the tank and dry it completely, then add new water and add the fish back in?

2. If the above is possible, even if it slightly lowers the efficacy of the treatment, could that be mitigated my simply doing 1 extra transfer before completing the treatment?

3. I know many fish (like my firefish) come with ich already in their system, but it doesn't present itself until a stress event. Would TTM still eridicate dormant ich from a fish that isn't presenting any symptoms yet? I'm worried if the ich remains dormant in the fish the entire time it could survive through the treatment rendering it a waste of time.

4. Does hybrid TTM do anything to eliminate any internal parasites the fish may have? As mentioned we don't have things like API GC or PP here, and to my understanding the peroxide dip treats external parasites, but I wasn't sure if it did anything internally.

So much to learn in this hobby, the big lesson so far for me is that punishment for slipups is swift and guaranteed! In my experience there's no such thing as luck haha... Thanks for all the help and patience!

 

[vetteguy53081]

So some brief backstory here, I set up my first saltwater tank about 6 weeks ago, got it cycled and added my first fish last week (firefish goby). I decided to forgo QT for the first fish fully aware of the potential consequences of this, figuring I'd get lucky with my first fish and I'd get my QT ready for all my next fish.

To my complete lack of surprise, my firefish rewarded me by almost instantly developing ich. So I'll be running hypo for a month or two to fix that and hopefully eliminate any ich added to the system.


Backstory over, my plan now after fixing all my mistakes so far is to do hybrid tank transfer with peroxide dips for all my future fish (I'm in Canada so meds like prazi and general cure seem to be nonexistent, and even copper is pretty hard to come by).

Despite mountains of research I'm clearly quite new to the hobby, and so I had a couple of questions about TTM I was hoping @Humblefish or some other experienced reefers could answer:

1. I've heard it said that it's not a huge deal if a few drops of water get transferred when moving the fish, because after 4 transfers the odds of any contaminated water making it through is near zero. With that logic, couldn't one use a single tank for tank transfer, get the fish to a temporary bucket and quickly sterilize the tank and dry it completely, then add new water and add the fish back in?

2. If the above is possible, even if it slightly lowers the efficacy of the treatment, could that be mitigated my simply doing 1 extra transfer before completing the treatment?

3. I know many fish (like my firefish) come with ich already in their system, but it doesn't present itself until a stress event. Would TTM still eridicate dormant ich from a fish that isn't presenting any symptoms yet? I'm worried if the ich remains dormant in the fish the entire time it could survive through the treatment rendering it a waste of time.

4. Does hybrid TTM do anything to eliminate any internal parasites the fish may have? As mentioned we don't have things like API GC or PP here, and to my understanding the peroxide dip treats external parasites, but I wasn't sure if it did anything internally.

So much to learn in this hobby, the big lesson so far for me is that punishment for slipups is swift and guaranteed! In my experience there's no such thing as luck haha... Thanks for all the help and patience!

I find TTM stressful to both fish and the person doing it
I prefer hyposalinity
If have have 2-3 tanks and patience, it works

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

+1 on hybrid TTM not being the best option for you. It only works for ich, while hypo also helps with flukes. TTM is very stressful, due to the constantly moving the fish, and possible ammonia issues in the transfer tanks. Additionally, TTM only works well when you have two sterilized systems (buckets) to move the fish between. TTM does nothing for internal parasites, but then, neither does hypo. Neither TTM or hypo works for velvet, but I don't think you have that issue.

Jay

 

[taylormaximus]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

+1 on hybrid TTM not being the best option for you. It only works for ich, while hypo also helps with flukes. TTM is very stressful, due to the constantly moving the fish, and possible ammonia issues in the transfer tanks. Additionally, TTM only works well when you have two sterilized systems (buckets) to move the fish between. TTM does nothing for internal parasites, but then, neither does hypo. Neither TTM or hypo works for velvet, but I don't think you have that issue.

Jay

I had a few reasons that I'm more drawn to hybrid TTM than hypo which I'll share, but if any of these reasons don't make sense or there's something I'm missing definitely let me know! I haven't done any of this yet, so this is all based on research.

-TTM can be completed in 14 days rather than in 35 days, which is good since I don't want my QT running for any longer than it has to (simply because it's in the way) and also because it's only 6 gallons, so some fish may not do well in such a small tank for longer than 2 weeks

-hybrid TTM can deal with ich, velvet, brook and possibly flukes and uronema, and to my knowledge is completely effective in dealing with at least ich, which is my primary concern

-I know that TTM can be stressful for the fish, but my plan to reduce that is that I have a large net that can almost cover the full size of the tank, so I can catch the fish very quickly, and then have prepared a bucket of new water to put the fish in while I sterilize the tank, and then I can simply lower the bucket directly into the new tank so it can freely swim out without needing to be caught again. I know that process won't quits work on the days where I have to do a peroxide bath, but it should still reduce stress to a reasonable degree

-To deal with ammonia I think I could use prime 24 hours after each transfer (since it binds ammonia for 48 hours). I can't imagine ammonia could rise to such dangerous levels so quickly anyway since I'll only ever be doing one small fish at a time and it'll never be in the same water for more than 72 hours


I think for QT my second choice would actually be copper before hypo, because again copper can be done in a shorter time than hypo. But it's not preferred either because copper is hard to find in Canada and also seems quite hard on the fish since its poison. And it also doesn't treat brook or flukes so there would still need to be some other treatment as well which would further add to the stress.

Again not sure if I'm missing anything here, but for my situation TTM does seem like the most practical option. I still have questions about TTM that I mentioned in my original post, so I'll still do further research before I proceed with anything.

-Max-

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hybrid TTM does NOT deal with flukes or Uronema.

I prefer copper/prazi over hypo.

I don't like to use Prime, Amquel is a better choice IMO. People have shown here that Prime fails to de-toxify ammonia.

Jay

 

[taylormaximus]

Hybrid TTM does NOT deal with flukes or Uronema.

I prefer copper/prazi over hypo.

I don't like to use Prime, Amquel is a better choice IMO. People have shown here that Prime fails to de-toxify ammonia.

Jay

I just got that information from Humblefish's forum on hybrid TTM, I'll quote what he said below:

"What if using a chemical in conjunction with the transfers could provide a more all-inclusive QT regimen?

There are two chemicals you can use to "enhance" TTM so it will also eliminate Velvet and Brook (and possibly Flukes and Uronema IF the infestation is light): Hydrogen Peroxide OR Formalin."

" One 30 min, 75ppm H2O2 bath should take care of flukes. However, you still need to apply a second treatment 6 days later to eliminate any hatchlings from the eggs (same as using prazi).

** And please remember all of this is just theoretical at the moment. **"

As he mentioned it's theoretical and needs further testing, and obviously I haven't personally tried it yet, but I'd be satisfied with a heavy reduction in flukes even if it doesn't totally eradicate them. It seems like a good option especially when access to proper medication is so limited. Flukes don't seem quite as difficult as ich!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I just got that information from Humblefish's forum on hybrid TTM, I'll quote what he said below:

"What if using a chemical in conjunction with the transfers could provide a more all-inclusive QT regimen?

There are two chemicals you can use to "enhance" TTM so it will also eliminate Velvet and Brook (and possibly Flukes and Uronema IF the infestation is light): Hydrogen Peroxide OR Formalin."

" One 30 min, 75ppm H2O2 bath should take care of flukes. However, you still need to apply a second treatment 6 days later to eliminate any hatchlings from the eggs (same as using prazi).

** And please remember all of this is just theoretical at the moment. **"

As he mentioned it's theoretical and needs further testing, and obviously I haven't personally tried it yet, but I'd be satisfied with a heavy reduction in flukes even if it doesn't totally eradicate them. It seems like a good option especially when access to proper medication is so limited. Flukes don't seem quite as difficult as ich!

It's all good, I'm not going to debate their methods if they differ from mine. I have enough fish disease cases here to keep me busy without getting into the weeds on that (grin).

Jay

 

[taylormaximus]

It's all good, I'm not going to debate their methods if they differ from mine. I have enough fish disease cases here to keep me busy without getting into the weeds on that (grin).

Jay

Haha sounds good man, as long as my thinking isn't fundamentally flawed somehow, I think it should work out! Thanks for the help

 

[vtecintegra]

I do TTM every 24 hrs for 14 days. I do three doses of Prazi, first day, 7 days later, and on day 13. One the days when I haven't dosed Prazi, I dose H2O2 for 30 minutes prior to transfer. My system is pretty simple with plastic totes. TTM is more popular over on Humblefish.

 

[taylormaximus]

I do TTM every 24 hrs for 14 days. I do three doses of Prazi, first day, 7 days later, and on day 13. One the days when I haven't dosed Prazi, I dose H2O2 for 30 minutes prior to transfer. My system is pretty simple with plastic totes. TTM is more popular over on Humblefish.

Wow that sounds really thorough! Have you ever had any breakthrough infections doing that? I still wonder if it's possible for ich to survive dormant on a fish through TTM if they're not showing symptoms.

 

[vtecintegra]

No ich or velvet in my DT. Almost anything is possible, but I don't believe ich or velvet remain dormant on a fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

No ich or velvet in my DT. Almost anything is possible, but I don't believe ich or velvet remain dormant on a fish.

Those diseases don't remain dormant "on the fish", but their tomonts can remain dormant in an aquarium for a period of time, and then become activated. The length of time for this dormancy is debatable, but is somewhere between 45 and 60 days, depending on conditions. There is also a rare case where a disease (usually marine ich) is active at a minor, more chronic level. The few trophonts on any fish are easily missed, so the fish are declared "disease free". Then, again due to some stressor, the disease kicks up a notch or two and the aquarists sees an active infection. I've seen that go on perhaps 6 or 8 months....

Jay

 

[bradreef]

I have read a bit about this and i believe there are pros and cons to ttm. And imo, it can be done well for copper sensative fish.

Pro- you shouldnt have to stress about amonia due to short time for it to build up
- no harsh chemicals used of sensitive fish
- i add ceramic pellets to my sump prior and use them in my submersible filter. There is no copper to soak into them and ruin them. I do a few small sets so each transfer is new
- you can premix a large container with all of the water prior so the sg is the same each time
- you can use a container of sand for wrasses because there is no copper to absorbe into it. Just unsure new sand each transfer.
cons- copper is proven to kill ich
- the transfer can be stressful to the fish .
- internal parasites are not treated
- not proven effective again brook , uronema.
- Cant do hydrogen peroxide if sores exist


All this being said, many on here believe the only way is 30 days copper ++++. They arent open to different ideas .

 

[bradreef]

I have done hybrid TTM and it can be a bit of work. But for the right fish. I think its better.

Perfect example of a fish that fits hybrid ttm. Mandarin.

 

[taylormaximus]

I have read a bit about this and i believe there are pros and cons to ttm. And imo, it can be done well for copper sensative fish.

Pro- you shouldnt have to stress about amonia due to short time for it to build up
- no harsh chemicals used of sensitive fish
- i add ceramic pellets to my sump prior and use them in my submersible filter. There is no copper to soak into them and ruin them. I do a few small sets so each transfer is new
- you can premix a large container with all of the water prior so the sg is the same each time
- you can use a container of sand for wrasses because there is no copper to absorbe into it. Just unsure new sand each transfer.
cons- copper is proven to kill ich
- the transfer can be stressful to the fish .
- internal parasites are not treated
- not proven effective again brook , uronema.
- Cant do hydrogen peroxide if sores exist


All this being said, many on here believe the only way is 30 days copper ++++. They arent open to different ideas .

+1 Good points all around, seems like there's lots of ways to do a thorough QT, they all have different pros and cons.

When you mention hydrogen peroxide not being an option when a fish has open sores, is that mostly referring to uronema and other wounds? Or would ich itself be considered reason enough to avoid the peroxide baths?

 

[bradreef]

From what ive read it uronema. Because, h202 is an erratant and will cause stress. Ide look on humblefish for that answer though.

 

[mrpontiac80]

I had a few reasons that I'm more drawn to hybrid TTM than hypo which I'll share, but if any of these reasons don't make sense or there's something I'm missing definitely let me know! I haven't done any of this yet, so this is all based on research.

-TTM can be completed in 14 days rather than in 35 days, which is good since I don't want my QT running for any longer than it has to (simply because it's in the way) and also because it's only 6 gallons, so some fish may not do well in such a small tank for longer than 2 weeks

-hybrid TTM can deal with ich, velvet, brook and possibly flukes and uronema, and to my knowledge is completely effective in dealing with at least ich, which is my primary concern

-I know that TTM can be stressful for the fish, but my plan to reduce that is that I have a large net that can almost cover the full size of the tank, so I can catch the fish very quickly, and then have prepared a bucket of new water to put the fish in while I sterilize the tank, and then I can simply lower the bucket directly into the new tank so it can freely swim out without needing to be caught again. I know that process won't quits work on the days where I have to do a peroxide bath, but it should still reduce stress to a reasonable degree

-To deal with ammonia I think I could use prime 24 hours after each transfer (since it binds ammonia for 48 hours). I can't imagine ammonia could rise to such dangerous levels so quickly anyway since I'll only ever be doing one small fish at a time and it'll never be in the same water for more than 72 hours


I think for QT my second choice would actually be copper before hypo, because again copper can be done in a shorter time than hypo. But it's not preferred either because copper is hard to find in Canada and also seems quite hard on the fish since its poison. And it also doesn't treat brook or flukes so there would still need to be some other treatment as well which would further add to the stress.

Again not sure if I'm missing anything here, but for my situation TTM does seem like the most practical option. I still have questions about TTM that I mentioned in my original post, so I'll still do further research before I proceed with anything.

-Max-

I use hybrid ttm and I have no regrets. Everything has survived, and everything has been doing well for quite some time now. You can search for my post on Humblefish’s web page I’m sure. Mrpontiac80 there also. I mention it only because like you, I had never done it prior. So I had plenty of questions.

To sum it up though, I use two of everything. 10 gallon tanks, cheap heaters, pvc for hiding, and screen tops. I use one air pump but every transfer gets new airline tube and air stone.
for transferring the fish, I bought a square colander from Amazon that fits the 10 gallon tank perfectly. A net can get hooked onto fish.
I would not try to use one tank because sterilization takes more effort than it sounds. Or at least in time.

 

[taylormaximus]

I use hybrid ttm and I have no regrets. Everything has survived, and everything has been doing well for quite some time now. You can search for my post on Humblefish’s web page I’m sure. Mrpontiac80 there also. I mention it only because like you, I had never done it prior. So I had plenty of questions.

To sum it up though, I use two of everything. 10 gallon tanks, cheap heaters, pvc for hiding, and screen tops. I use one air pump but every transfer gets new airline tube and air stone.
for transferring the fish, I bought a square colander from Amazon that fits the 10 gallon tank perfectly. A net can get hooked onto fish.
I would not try to use one tank because sterilization takes more effort than it sounds. Or at least in time.

Do you use any sort of HOB filter? Or do the bubblers provide enough airation that you don't need it?

I think the sterilization is the big thing I still want to learn more about, because I'm not really sure how thorough you need to be with it, whether it's simply making sure everything is 100% dry, or if the vinegar/bleach making contact with every component that's most important. Or if you could simply air dry everything over the 3 days to use it again for the next transfer?

 

[mrpontiac80]

Do you use any sort of HOB filter? Or do the bubblers provide enough airation that you don't need it?

I think the sterilization is the big thing I still want to learn more about, because I'm not really sure how thorough you need to be with it, whether it's simply making sure everything is 100% dry, or if the vinegar/bleach making contact with every component that's most important. Or if you could simply air dry everything over the 3 days to use it again for the next transfer?

I do not use a hob. Strictly use a tank, heater, two pvc 90s and air stone. And screen top.
as for sterilization…. Remember there are doubles of everything. I simply followed Humblefish’s method.
When it is time to transfer, I fill up a sterile 5 gallon bucket with 2 gallons of water and did my peroxide bath for 30 min with an air stone. During this time, I empty the tank and carry it to my spare bathroom. I wash my hands and start setting up the new system identical to the last. My fresh saltwater is already heated and once my 30 min is up I move the fish into the new setup.

Sterilization is done by rinsing everything in tap and then thoroughly cleaning everything with vinegar. Screen top too.
I then took it all out to my garage to air dry with a fan blowing onto everything. It’s ready by the next transfer.

the following is a quote from Humblefish answering my question…. Please keep in mind I used general cure also but his response was not relating to that.

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT.

(H2O2 bath is done in-between this transfer.)

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat transfer.

(H2O2 bath is done in-between this transfer.)

Day 10 – Repeat transfer.

Day 13 – Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite + worm free).

 

[mrpontiac80]

Here is a video you might find helpful