Questions for Those Using Sand Beds Successfully for SPS

Dr. Jim

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My intent is NOT to make this a debate about Sand vs Bare-bottom. Instead, I'm inviting anyone who is having success with sand to share their thoughts (especially, in regards to SPS). (Let's ignore aesthetics for now). In particular, I'd like to gather opinions regarding your thoughts as to why you prefer sand beds and :

1) How long have you been running your tank with sand? And, how long do you think a sand-bed tank can last before running into problems, if any? (if you think there is a "limit" to their "lifespan" when do you think that might occur?)

2) How deep is your sand and what brand(s) and/or mixtures do you use? Does anyone use a plenum? How deep do you think a bed can be (without a plenum) and not have to worry about anoxic conditions with sulfites being released if stirred up?

3) How do you believe that sand affects Nitrates and Phosphates over time? Can you get UL levels and conversely, is it difficult to get anything but UL levels?

4) What, if any, is your maintenance schedule?

5) Do you have a photo of your tank (esp. SPS tanks) with a sand bed? (Who are some of the "big names" with successful SPS tanks with sand?)

My experience:
In '94, I set up a 500 gal tank with a plenum with 4" dolomite (the only substrate available back then). All my tanks between the mid 60's to this tank always had dolomite substrate (without a plenum). Several years later I removed the sand and revamped the rockwork when I got into SPS. Much of the dolomite turned into a brick, besides the fact that it was incredibly filthy. (I could only siphon about 1/4 of the substrate because of the rockwork). But in retrospect, I don't know if either of these two observations should be considered undesirable or harmful, especially the "filth" (which probably contained all kinds of beneficial bacteria and other organisms). My equipment and knowledge back then was not what it is today, so it is hard to look back and fairly critique that old sand bed.
Since then, I have set up at least 10 systems, all bare-bottom. I scaled down to just a 60 gal cube at the present time, anticipating the sale of my house with plans of a huge SPS system (where I'm debating sand) when I move. As I look at the cube, I feel like it is too "sterile". Since I am using this temporary tank for experiments (LED's for the first time and GHL Controller, for example), I'm considering adding sand.

Thank you for your thoughts....
 

Mastiffsrule

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Hey Doc,

My uncle used to live in Farmingdale in the 80’s. Don’t really remember much.

So I am far from an expert. I am maybe a few month ahead of you on a similar idea. I redid my 180 about a year ago and pulled 10 year old gravel out of my 180 to exchange it for sand. Parts of the gravel were like brick.

I put in #120 of Fiji pink. I love it. No plenum. I rinsed the heck out of it before I put it in. I got a fairly big diamond goby who can turn most of the surface over every day. It shifts all over daily. I also stir the sand at least once a week. I like it clean. I am starting slow with a few small frags. First few months I lost most. In the last 3 months I have gained traction. 4 of my acros are encrusting noticeable weekly. I cannot say if sand helps or not. Plus I love blue legs so I need the sand for the 75+ I have of them and the snails.
 
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Dr. Jim

Dr. Jim

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Hey Doc,

My uncle used to live in Farmingdale in the 80’s. Don’t really remember much.

So I am far from an expert. I am maybe a few month ahead of you on a similar idea. I redid my 180 about a year ago and pulled 10 year old gravel out of my 180 to exchange it for sand. Parts of the gravel were like brick.

I put in #120 of Fiji pink. I love it. No plenum. I rinsed the heck out of it before I put it in. I got a fairly big diamond goby who can turn most of the surface over every day. It shifts all over daily. I also stir the sand at least once a week. I like it clean. I am starting slow with a few small frags. First few months I lost most. In the last 3 months I have gained traction. 4 of my acros are encrusting noticeable weekly. I cannot say if sand helps or not. Plus I love blue legs so I need the sand for the 75+ I have of them and the snails.
Ha! Small world! Thanks for sharing!
----------------
I haven't gotten much of a response and I'm guessing I asked too many questions. :)
(I just listed every question about sand that I have wondered about)

Its OK for anybody to just pick one question to answer. (Maybe eventually we will get them all answered!) :)
 

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Sps guy here and an avid sand user, in fact, I'll never set up a tank without sand, but it's a personal preference and not a stab at bare bottom. I used to keep DSB in the 90's, but they were in my sumps/refugiums and not the display. I like about an inch of sand in the display, but it usually gets deeper in areas where the flow pushes it around. The key for long term success is keeping it clean or "active", I prefer natural critters to keep the bed stirred up and moved around, but I do use a gravel vac from time to time, but only about six square inches at a time. Sand beds are great havens for micro fauna, which in turn, clean and feed the tank. Worms, pods, mini stars, etc...... all play a role in a diverse and healthy system. If left unchecked, they can cause problems later in the life of the tank, especially if a large portion gets disrupted and releases the nastiness that builds up over time. Just like live rock, you need to clean (blow out) the detritus or the same thing will happen.
Btw, the 80's were filled with under gravel filters and dolimite. Oh yeah, bleached dead coral skeletons were the thing, the whiter, the better. Go figure.
 

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Ha! Small world! Thanks for sharing!
----------------
I haven't gotten much of a response and I'm guessing I asked too many questions. :)
(I just listed every question about sand that I have wondered about)

Its OK for anybody to just pick one question to answer. (Maybe eventually we will get them all answered!) :)

Never too many questions, and pm me if no response. You can also bump anytime. A lot of times it is just who is on at what time and what the topic is.

@minus9 We must have all been neighbors. We are all on the same methodology. My only difference is sand be cleaning. I have no problem stirring up the entire bed of my 180, including under rock all at once. I see dark plumes of water rise up. I actually feel better having it come up. On my down side my tank is so old I have not seen a brittle star, worm, asterina , etc in a while. The sand really is pretty sterile. Kinda sad, no new life to look for.

Those deep sand beds went away for the most part, butI recently set up a diatom filter if you guys ever ran one of those. I think they could make a come back.
 
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minus9

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Never too many questions, and pm me if no response. You can also bump anytime. A lot of times it is just who is on at what time and what the topic is.

@minus9 We must have all been neighbors. We are all on the same methodology. My only difference is sand be cleaning. I have no problem stirring up the entire bed of my 180, including under rock all at once. I see dark plumes of water rise up. I actually feel better having it come up. On my down side my tank is so old I have not seen a brittle star, worm, asteria, etc in a while. The sand really is pretty sterile. Kinda sad, no new life to look for.

Those deep sand beds went away for the most part, butI recently set up a diatom filter if you guys ever ran one of those. I think they could make a come back.
Yeah, I have no issue stirring it up too, but unless you have the experience dealing with it, then you may be in for a surprise. I tend to give cautious advice in that regard.
 

Rjmul

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New sps guy. New Reef tank guy. I research a LOT. And was heavy into freshwater shrimp before I got the salt bug.

my tank ranges from 1-5 inches of sand

I know salt and fresh are much different animals but I think we should be paying more attention to the real old school freshwater guys. (Take in some of their experiences, And maybe just relax a little)

I'm in the opinion that deep sand beds are a good thing. The more untouched by us the better, in the camp of natural digging critters being a good thing. (Slow and steady manipulation of the sand. No booming gravel vacs). I have a five gallon planted tank I haven't touched in over 3 years. No water changes no fertilizer no gravel vac. Nothing. It has about 6.5 inches of substrate.

if you dive deep enough into freshwater YouTube you'll find LRbrett aka shrimp Jesus. He has a fish HOUSE. something around 300 tanks. The fact that he's married with kids baffles me As his filters end up breaking he's been just removing them entirely and running air stones only. He talks of sand beds bubbling and releasing sulfur to the point that he could smell it in the room and nothing bad happened.

just last week I had a rouge powerhead that fell down in my reef Blew clean to the bottom of my 1-5 inch sand bed. Nothing bad happened.

OH and on the topic of sand beds turning to concrete, reef dudes had a coral farmer on a live stream (I don't remember his name). He spoke of starting out in aquarium maintenance and 100% of the time he found a sand bed turned to concrete it was because of years and years of two part. Something about it working for a while, but technically being the "wrong" form of calcium of buffer, or "something". Let's ask randy

all in all I think the sand debate is similar to the alk debate or the salt brand debate. It all works. Just preference
 
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Dr. Jim

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Those deep sand beds went away for the most part, butI recently set up a diatom filter if you guys ever ran one of those. I think they could make a come back.
I had a diatom filter many, many years ago (20-30??) but don't remember why we used them! I just remember they were supposed to "polish" the water (which I'm not sure I would want to do now)....and I remember they would clog in no time!

I, too, would siphon large areas at a time....as much as I could.... when performing water changes. I still like the theory behind plenums with a deep sand bed, though.
 

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Yeah, I have no issue stirring it up too, but unless you have the experience dealing with it, then you may be in for a surprise. I tend to give cautious advice in that regard.

That is a great point. I am really a fish and softie guy. Really fish. I still have to remember to get in the mind set that what I can get away with before doesn’t fly on sps. Thanks for pointing that out. I never worried about that with a tank full of toadstools and Vlamingi tang :D
 
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Dr. Jim

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Sorry, I like a mix of special grade and fiji pink, but think special grade is my preference, unless you have sand sifting fish?
When you mix different sands, don't you find that the finer sand will just eventually settle to the bottom?
 
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Dr. Jim

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If I could gather info on just one aspect of the "sand topic", it would be about LONGEVITY and the NEED TO SIPHON.

Do you think that a sand bed can be successful indefinitely (or even 10-15 years)?
I wonder if it is possible for the sand to become "over-saturated" with wastes/detritus. Even if this does happen, do you think the bacteria and other microflora would keep up with the demand? ....indefinitely?

And, how essential is it to siphon? In most tanks, probably only 20-30% of the surface area can be siphoned (due to rockwork). So, if only this small area can be reached, what's the point? If the sand bed remains functional and beneficial over time (without problems) with 70% of it NOT being siphoned, then why bother with the other 30%?
(I'm talking about DEEP siphoning....not just skimming the surface to make it look clean).

Thank you for your thoughts...
 

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Btw, the 80's were filled with under gravel filters and dolimite. Oh yeah, bleached dead coral skeletons were the thing, the whiter, the better.
So were the 60's and 70's. I still have all those dead coral skeletons and they aren't all white. I've got blue, purple and red ones too.
 

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To the OP, you say you've set up 10 or so systems in barebottom after having tanks with gravel/sand. Why did you go to barebottom? You maybe able to answer your own question about having a sandbed.
 
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Dr. Jim

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To the OP, you say you've set up 10 or so systems in barebottom after having tanks with gravel/sand. Why did you go to barebottom? You maybe able to answer your own question about having a sandbed.
I switched to bare-bottom about 20 years ago when bare-bottom became the "thing to do" with SPS. My knowledge and equipment 20-30 years ago wasn't nearly what it is today....so it wouldn't be fair for me to assess my results from that long ago compared to how it might be today if I tried a sand bed again, but this time with all the latest technology and knowledge. For example, when I removed my 4" sand bed with plenum back then, I saw the sand was absolutely filthy...but in retrospect, I have to wonder if that was really a "bad" thing. (I'm sure it was loaded with tons of beneficial bacteria and other organisms that I just threw away.....all along thinking I was doing something "good" to improve my system).
 

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Do you think that a sand bed can be successful indefinitely (or even 10-15 years)?
I wonder if it is possible for the sand to become "over-saturated" with wastes/detritus. Even if this does happen, do you think the bacteria and other microflora would keep up with the demand? ....indefinitely?
My sand bed is currently ~1.5 inches. My tank has been set up for 6 years. I occasionally gravel vac. Mostly the creatures keep the bed stirred. I have a conch and a nasarius they are always moving the bed a lot. I am comfortable with the bed and if I were to continue this tank (I am upgrading see my build thread) I am sure it could go on indefinitely. I had some zoas go south and my tank is currently 50ppm nitrate. Meh, no real change. I think the diversity of the bed contributes to this stability.

I have done plenums for 20 years, people really tear them apart for lack of understanding. Some things that I found with plenums is that they don't work well at the bottom of the tank. The "shading" from the rock blocks diffusion, so if you do a DSB or a Plenum don't put stuff on top of it. As to the whole issue of H2S I find it hilarious that people worry about this and blame it for the death of their fish. It isn't the cause. I have dumped what would be considered ghastly amounts of H2S into my tank with not affect on the creatures other than the algaes. What people don't consider is the source of the H2S and why it is being created. THAT is the real thing that kills.

And, how essential is it to siphon? In most tanks, probably only 20-30% of the surface area can be siphoned (due to rockwork). So, if only this small area can be reached, what's the point? If the sand bed remains functional and beneficial over time (without problems) with 70% of it NOT being siphoned, then why bother with the other 30%?
(I'm talking about DEEP siphoning....not just skimming the surface to make it look clean).
I actually try to keep the gravel vacs to a minimum because I don't want to remove too much fauna.

Also I like the look of sugar sand so I use that. I just pick whatever is available I am not particular on any brand.

I really don't think much about the sand other than I like the look. I find a bare bottom to be aesthetically displeasing, but like I said I don't think very hard about it.

Hope that helps :)
 
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Dr. Jim

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Some things that I found with plenums is that they don't work well at the bottom of the tank. The "shading" from the rock blocks diffusion, so if you do a DSB or a Plenum don't put stuff on top of it.
May I ask what you mean by "....the plenums not working well at the bottom of the tank"? (Where else would you put one?) :)

And, would you mind elaborating as to why you don't think they do well if you put rocks on top of them? Not sure how you can have a plenum and not have rocks on them. I use to cut 3" and 4" diam PVC pipe into 4" lengths with a 1" slice taken out of them longitudinally and use them as stands (or platforms) on top of the plenum with 4" of sand. So the rocks were essentially at the surface of the sand instead of sinking down into the sand. (Not sure if that counts as "....not putting stuff on top of the plenum".

And lastly, have you found control of NO3 and PO4 (whether you want UL or higher levels) to be more difficult with a sand bed compared to bare bottom? (Anyone else with opinions on this are appreciated as well).

Thanks for helping!
 

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May I ask what you mean by "....the plenums not working well at the bottom of the tank"? (Where else would you put one?)
I have built separate "sumps" for them and I also had one in a PVC pipe in the tank. Here are pics. The sump pic is old and before I learned not to put stuff on the bed.

2016-02-21 17.32.39.jpg
Plenum version 1 all set up.jpg

And, would you mind elaborating as to why you don't think they do well if you put rocks on top of them?
This is merely my observation but it seems like it blocks/obstructs the diffusive aspect of the plenum. This in my opinion is a serious impediment because diffusion is so slow.

It's not to say I haven't put rock work on plenums, I have over the years I have found it to be less than desirable. Though I have to say your solution would be more effective than what I did which was to put the rocks on the sand. That said I still think that diffusion is too slow and anything that impedes it makes the plenum less effective.

And lastly, have you found control of NO3 and PO4 (whether you want UL or higher levels) to be more difficult with a sand bed compared to bare bottom? (Anyone else with opinions on this are appreciated as well).
I can't really make definitive statements here because I have never had a bare bottom tank.

I can say that, I pretty much ignore PO3 and NO3 in my tanks. I do measure NO3 occasionally. I am not as freaked out by algaes as most are, I just see them as a part of the ecosystem and as long as they are in balance I am good.
 

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