Questions regarding additives, corals, and invertebrates

[davehead86]

My question revolves around the addition of trace element additives in my aquarium. At this point I do not want to discuss the addition of them (they will continue to be added), I want to know the answers to these questions in regards to the additives and how they affect the tank.


Most of them have Copper in them. Is there a difference between Copper and Copper EDTA? What are safe levels of copper in the tank for invertebrates? Specifically shrimps that I seem to be losing after I introduce the additives to the tank. My fish and other inverts and corals do fine, just my shrimps are dying off.

Would adding these things in the sump instead of the display tank make a difference?

Does a skimmer remove heavy metals? Does a carbon reactor remove heavy metals?

If I use a poly filter to remove the copper will it also remove the other things in the additives making it a futile effort and a complete waste of time and money?

The reason I added these additives to the tank in the first place was to color-up my corals (long story). They have colored up successfully, will they now lose color if I stop using the additives or do corals not work that way?

Will changing salt for a cheap brand (IO) to another type remove the need for additives? What brands would remove the need for additives?


I'd like some actual answers to the questions and not a tirade about how I shouldn't be using additives or that they are snake oil. I have gotten no where on a few other reef message boards because it's just a bash session on additives. I have crappy salt, I have had success with additives and the only downfall has been dead shrimp. Id like to provide my corals these additives and also keep shrimps.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[john.m.cole3]

Hello, thanks for posting. I can't help you much as I don't use additives other than alk, calc, mag. the salt I use provides all trace elements necessary with water changes. Fritz is the brand of salt I use. It costs 63.99 for 200 gallons, where the original IO is around $40. I have used boh salts before and both will do a fine job keeping a reef tank. I personally find fritz low in cost and easy to mix.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hi Dave. Welcome to Reef2reef!
You won't get that kinda bashing here.

I'll hit one point. The poly pad is a binder. Like gfo. It will remove some trace elements but also undesirable heavy metals. Like copper. I belive most of the trace elements we dose for the tank are not removed in large enough quarantines to effect your dosing.

As far as additives, what specific additives are you referring to?

 

[davehead86]

Hello, thanks for posting. I can't help you much as I don't use additives other than alk, calc, mag. the salt I use provides all trace elements necessary with water changes. Fritz is the brand of salt I use. It costs 63.99 for 200 gallons, where the original IO is around $40. I have used boh salts before and both will do a fine job keeping a reef tank. I personally find fritz low in cost and easy to mix.

I have also heard great things about Fritz. Currently my main three are low when water changing so a salt that can provided a little bit of a higher starting point in regards to the big three will be beneficial, even if it costs a little more.

Hi Dave. Welcome to Reef2reef!
You won't get that kinda bashing here.

I'll hit one point. The poly pad is a binder. Like gfo. It will remove some trace elements but also undesirable heavy metals. Like copper. I belive most of the trace elements we dose for the tank are not removed in large enough quarantines to effect your dosing.

As far as additives, what specific additives are you referring to?

I currently am using Kent Marine Iodine (5ml) and their Essential Elements Bottles (10ml) once a week. Then the standard BRS Calcium and Alkalinity mix added by a doser daily.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Have you ever tested for copper? Additives aside, invert death is a concern.

Fwiw, I use instant ocean salt. My alk is around 8.5. (IO is 11). I'm not seeing any real swings or shifts. So it may be that your big three are not being dosed in sufficient quantities.

Most seem to state that regular WC will replace most needed trace elements, but several others methods will require testing of these levels as just WC alone won't keep up with demand particularly for certain species.

 

[davehead86]

Have you ever tested for copper? Additives aside, invert death is a concern.

Fwiw, I use instant ocean salt. My alk is around 8.5. (IO is 11). I'm not seeing any real swings or shifts. So it may be that your big three are not being dosed in sufficient quantities.

Most seem to state that regular WC will replace most needed trace elements, but several others methods will require testing of these levels as just WC alone won't keep up with demand particularly for certain species.

I have not tested for copper. Wasnt aware that was an option avaliable for me.
I have tested for iodine at the LFS and it read at .06
For whatever reason my system seems to be a pretty low nutrient system. I have always tested at 0 for Nitrates and Phosphates.

As for the big three ...

ALK steady 8.9
Calcium 390
Magnesium 1200

I have been working on raising the mag and calcium while trying not to mess with the ALK too much. Its been a slow process. And adding a dozen new sps frags hasn't help dial in the numbers quicker either. lol In all honesty a more frequent water change schedule from me would probably help that situation but right now I've only been able to get at it once a month at about 10% change.


My LFS uses Aquavitro Fuel in their tank everyday and they have shrimp in their tanks, but they add to the sump so that where the line of questioning around adding to the sump or using poly filter to pull the copper out would be better than to the display directly.

 

[Danny Venditti]

I have also heard great things about Fritz. Currently my main three are low when water changing so a salt that can provided a little bit of a higher starting point in regards to the big three will be beneficial, even if it costs a little more.



I currently am using Kent Marine Iodine (5ml) and their Essential Elements Bottles (10ml) once a week. Then the standard BRS Calcium and Alkalinity mix added by a doser daily.

Just as a rule of thumb. Try to keep it simple a lot of people add too many things thinking it will give them better results, growth, color, etc. I also use fritz and I like it more than any other. Only add what your tank and corals tell you they need and even that is a process not an event. I add nothing beyond weekly water changes and maybe a bit of amino acids every now and then. A good skimmer, change socks every 2 days and weekly water changes at 10-15% will be a good start. If you want to start adding later to give you a better result do one at a time and I always do 25% of what they recommend and move up from there.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The copper test is pretty readily available. I'd look int one. Do you have other inverts? Copepods isopods etc?
Your coral should possibly be effected there as well.

Fuel is an amino blend. So therefore a food and not a mineral or trace element source.

Fwiw our resident chemist , Mr Farley , generally does not endorse iodine as a needed suppliment.


As I understand it pretty much all organic sources contain what would be considered toxic substances ,copper , but are not in high enough concentrations to be of any concern.
Like fat for humans , without it we would perish, but in high concentrations we fallnill. So many of those fears are overblown by not quite understanding the full picture of how they work.

So unless your dosing a high concentration of any thing your probably alright, introduction would be from another source, most commonly , used live rock that may have been exposed to copper treatments at one time. Like from a fish only tank.

 

[davehead86]

Just as a rule of thumb. Try to keep it simple a lot of people add too many things thinking it will give them better results, growth, color, etc. I also use fritz and I like it more than any other. Only add what your tank and corals tell you they need and even that is a process not an event. I add nothing beyond weekly water changes and maybe a bit of amino acids every now and then. A good skimmer, change socks every 2 days and weekly water changes at 10-15% will be a good start. If you want to start adding later to give you a better result do one at a time and I always do 25% of what they recommend and move up from there.

Yes KISS is the prefered method. The dozen SPS frags were not doing well at all in my tank after a few weeks and I started adding the additives as a last ditch effort to help the corals. It worked and now they have amazing coloration to them and nice PE. With such wonderful results I thought maybe continuing the addition of it would be beneficial, but am starting to notice a trend of just leave it out of the tank.

The copper test is pretty readily available. I'd look int one. Do you have other inverts? Copepods isopods etc?
Your coral should possibly be effected there as well.
Fuel is an amino blend. So therefore a food and not a mineral or trace element source.
Fwiw our resident chemist , Mr Farley , generally does not endorse iodine as a needed suppliment.
As I understand it pretty much all organic sources contain what would be considered toxic substances ,copper , but are not in high enough concentrations to be of any concern.
Like fat for humans , without it we would perish, but in high concentrations we fallnill. So many of those fears are overblown by not quite understanding the full picture of how they work.
So unless your dosing a high concentration of any thing your probably alright, introduction would be from another source, most commonly , used live rock that may have been exposed to copper treatments at one time. Like from a fish only tank.

I have a slew of snails, 4-5 emerald crabs, two sand sifting starfish, a serpent starfish and sea cucumber in the sump. All of them remain healthy and active. Corals remain healthy and look great. Anemone looks great too. Ill get a test kit, stop dosing the additives and watch from there. My live rock is clean, no copper on it at any point.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So it's just bad luck with the shrimp.

 

[davehead86]

So it's just bad luck with the shrimp.

Its been 4 shrimps in a month tho. I thought it may be an offending bully Tang but he was removed and then another one died.
I know that shrimps are very sensitive so this was the impetus for all of these questions regarding removal / safe levels of copper and additives.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Under stood. Yea that is weird. It is possible to put compete a species in a tank, like too much CUC. But that does seem odd.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'll try to answer the questions, but for some the answers aren't known, or can't be known since there are too many variables involved.

If you appear to lose organisms after adding trace elements, I'd stop adding them. The benefits of many of them are questionable. Without any dosing you may have enough of some of them.

"Most of them have Copper in them. Is there a difference between Copper and Copper EDTA? What are safe levels of copper in the tank for invertebrates? Specifically shrimps that I seem to be losing after I introduce the additives to the tank. My fish and other inverts and corals do fine, just my shrimps are dying off. "

Yes, there's a difference. EDTA is an organic molecule that binds copper. It makes it less bioavailable, so less beneficial but also less toxic. It likely needs to be broken down chemically before the copper can be used. The exact amount needed and the amount that is toxic depends entirely on the form present (what it is bound to), and you won't know which forms remain in your tank at any given time.

You should not have enough to detect with a kit. You need a method such as ICP (e.g., Triton).

In my tank, 10-15 ppb was OK. 100 or more ppb may be a big problem.

Most people see none via Triton testing, but a few see some.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Would adding these things in the sump instead of the display tank make a difference?"

Not likely, no.

"Does a skimmer remove heavy metals? Does a carbon reactor remove heavy metals?"

Neither do much directly for bare metals in seawater, but metals like copper will be bound to organics which can them possibly be skimmed or bound to GAC (depending on the organic).

EDTA copper likely won't be removed a lot, but maybe a little.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"If I use a poly filter to remove the copper will it also remove the other things in the additives making it a futile effort and a complete waste of time and money?"

It is a worthwhile thing to try. It may not bind EDTA copper but will bind free copper. It will bind other metals too, but if you have a metal tox issue, that is more important than some additional export.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"
The reason I added these additives to the tank in the first place was to color-up my corals (long story). They have colored up successfully, will they now lose color if I stop using the additives or do corals not work that way?

Will changing salt for a cheap brand (IO) to another type remove the need for additives? What brands would remove the need for additives?"

No on the last question. It has about the same trace metals as other brands.

I don't know why your corals colored up, so can't answer. Many people see no apparent effect of trace elements (me, for example).

 

[davehead86]

Randy,

Thanks for the answers to the questions! I appreciate a Chemist helping to answer some of these questions.
Ill stop the additives, add some Poly Filter, and just leave well enough alone.
I do think Ill switch to another salt tho, at least one that can get the product water more in line with the numbers I need so I use less two part to raise them.

Thanks again!