Questions with making a stand longer than the tank

[MaccaPopEye]

Doing a bit more research I found this thread on another page:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/worried-that-your-stand-wont-hold-up.302232/

It breaks down the strength of a 2x4 and explains how much weight a stand can have. Having read that i am happy to go ahead with the stand I will still be making the center supports 2x6 for extra piece of mind even though I am sure it is not needed haha

Thanks for all the input!

 

[ThePapa]

Hello Macca, The commercial stands are nothing compared to a corner built with a single 2by4. I don't see why Your 1st design wouldn't work? How heavy will the tank be? Sorry if I missed that.

I would agree that 2x4's are great in many ways but the week part of this design is going to be the joints and fasteners. Racking, twisting of the stand under weight, should be of real concern in any stand design. I see nothing in the pics or conversation about nails, screws, lap joints, glue, plugs, biscuits or mortise an tenons. A few nails or screws won't hold up that well under lateral loads so if you don't think your 300 pound buddy can lean hard up against your tank and stand go back to the drawing board. Plywood or 2x4's it is still about the joints.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I would agree that 2x4's are great in many ways but the week part of this design is going to be the joints and fasteners. Racking, twisting of the stand under weight, should be of real concern in any stand design. I see nothing in the pics or conversation about nails, screws, lap joints, glue, plugs, biscuits or mortise an tenons. A few nails or screws won't hold up that well under lateral loads so if you don't think your 300 pound buddy can lean hard up against your tank and stand go back to the drawing board. Plywood or 2x4's it is still about the joints.

All joints will be done using wood glue and pocket holes. Since I am not attaching a plywood skin I am going to add in some diagonal braces on the back of the frame to prevent racking.

 

[ThePapa]

Multiple bidirectional 3.5" or 4" #10 Span X could be made to work. Some 10" X 10 " 3/4'' plywood triangles glued and screwed to the inside or your corners in all directions after several 4" pocket screws have been installed should help stabilize things without giving up a lot of space.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

So would this work fine? And just the back wall or every corner with a tank support? Doing the triangles with ply would take up less space but I will have enough leftover 2x4 to do these braces. If I need braces on all corners I will probably go with ply triangles on the front and 2x4 on the rear.

 

[ThePapa]

So would this work fine? And just the back wall or every corner with a tank support? Doing the triangles with ply would take up less space but I will have enough leftover 2x4 to do these braces. If I need braces on all corners I will probably go with ply triangles on the front and 2x4 on the rear.

All four corners on all four sides top and bottom need to be braced to prevent collapse. Think of it as a picture frame, nothing in the opening, set on the floor and push on the top corner it will collapse. Build some test pieces and do some destructive testing so as to feel good about putting a car jack in the middle of your test square and jack up the middle until something fails. You will soon see what joints take a beating. The test square does not have to be more than 2' x 2' and each corner can have a different joint to test.

 

[scott021467]

I used Diy Joey's design when I built my stand almost 5 years ago. It had my original 50 gal tank on it and now holds my 90 gal. All of it is 2x4 bracing across the top abd bottom and 2x4 supports just as he does it.

 

[ThePapa]

Properly designed a tank stand does not have to be heavy to be strong, one person can pick this one up and move it around. This is a stand I built for my daughter's 265 gal tank it is 24"x32"x7' and currently supports over 3,000 pounds. This stand was assembled with biscuits and glue no nails, staples or screws were used. The moldings and doors are to be assembled later.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Properly designed a tank stand does not have to be heavy to be strong, one person can pick this one up and move it around. This is a stand I built for my daughter's 265 gal tank it is 24"x32"x7' and currently supports over 3,000 pounds. This stand was assembled with biscuits and glue no nails, staples or screws were used. The moldings and doors are to be assembled later.

That's a really nice, clean stand I agree that a stand doesn't need to be built like a tank depending on what materials you have access to. Where I live plywood is really, really expensive and the thickest sheets I can easily get are only 17mm. Even if 17mm was thick enough (I don't know if it is) building a stand out of just 17mm ply would cost me around 2-3x times that of a 2x4 stand that is just skinned in 12mm ply.

Looks like I will just have to add some braces to each corner then. The only place I can't add braces will be at the bottom of the middle support going between the front and back. But I can add them on all other corners (including the chillier side).

Do the braces need to be quite that big?

I used Diy Joey's design when I built my stand almost 5 years ago. It had my original 50 gal tank on it and now holds my 90 gal. All of it is 2x4 bracing across the top abd bottom and 2x4 supports just as he does it.

So your tank just sits on the cross braces between the frame and you have no vertical braces directly under that tank? Is there any flex in the stand? I was under the impression that the important part of that design (that Joey and a lot of others use) is that the corners of the tank sit over and transfer their weight directly down through the vertical corner supports.

 

[jjvanb]

Just curious, your planning this because the original stand has some rust? Why not just sand or grind the rust off, prime and repaint?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Just curious, your planning this because the original stand has some rust? Why not just sand or grind the rust off, prime and repaint?

I have considered doing that but for a lot of reasons I keep coming back to wanting a new stand. I want to move the tank across the house anyway so this way I can build the new stand and have it ready in the new location for a quick move. If I was to fix the current stand I would have to break the tank down into buckets/tubs and leave it there for a couple of days, fix the stand and then set it up in the new location.

The current stand is also just a fraction too short for the tank and the tank hangs out about 5mm on all sides so the sump would hang out on either side too which isn't ideal.

I could just build a box for the chiller to sit next to the tank but if possible I would rather build a new stand, include an electrical compartment & fans, paint it all, place it where I want it to be, put in the new sump, do the plumbing and have everything ready and then just move the tank over.

I also want a new project. The rust is just why I want to get this done sooner rather than later. I know I said asap in the OP but really I am looking at a good 3-4 weeks before I want to have the new stand ready to move everything across.

 

[cope413]

I think you're overthinking it a bit.

As stated and shown above with the "simple" stand, you don't need much.

Your original design (in first post), with the 2x4sx would be totally adequate if you put a piece of ply on top (1/2" would be more than fine). Ideally you would want to add shear to one other side (the back is easiest). Simple butt joints with glue and deck screws, and screws to attach ply to top and back are all that's needed. If you want to get more involved with your joinery, great, but if you're skinning it anyway, then no one will see your joints, so it's wasted effort IMO.

 

[ThePapa]

That's a really nice, clean stand I agree that a stand doesn't need to be built like a tank depending on what materials you have access to. Where I live plywood is really, really expensive and the thickest sheets I can easily get are only 17mm. Even if 17mm was thick enough (I don't know if it is) building a stand out of just 17mm ply would cost me around 2-3x times that of a 2x4 stand that is just skinned in 12mm ply.

Looks like I will just have to add some braces to each corner then. The only place I can't add braces will be at the bottom of the middle support going between the front and back. But I can add them on all other corners (including the chillier side).

Do the braces need to be quite that big?



So your tank just sits on the cross braces between the frame and you have no vertical braces directly under that tank? Is there any flex in the stand? I was under the impression that the important part of that design (that Joey and a lot of others use) is that the corners of the tank sit over and transfer their weight directly down through the vertical corner supports.

Thanks. Hay I totally understand about the ply. I have used smaller, 15/16's, straight pieces of ply if available to bridge the joint on the inside on other 2x4 projects with great results when glued and screwed in place. Once I even used a paint stir stick glued on the inside of a cabinet that was racking with great results. I guess what I am trying to say is whatever you can glue across the joints on the inside will add a tone of stability. Please show us your progress.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I think you're overthinking it a bit.

As stated and shown above with the "simple" stand, you don't need much.

Your original design (in first post), with the 2x4sx would be totally adequate if you put a piece of ply on top (1/2" would be more than fine). Ideally you would want to add shear to one other side (the back is easiest). Simple butt joints with glue and deck screws, and screws to attach ply to top and back are all that's needed. If you want to get more involved with your joinery, great, but if you're skinning it anyway, then no one will see your joints, so it's wasted effort IMO.

I'm not worried about fancy joints, just strong ones. I will be using pocket holes with glue to make butt joints. I will be using a sheet of ply on the top but would like the back to stay open, hence that suggestion above about corner braces. I may or may not add them to all corners. At this stage I may just build the stand, and add them on the back and then if I can't get the stand to move when applying force, leave it as is, if it moves add them to some more corners

Thanks. Hay I totally understand about the ply. I have used smaller, 15/16's, straight pieces of ply if available to bridge the joint on the inside on other 2x4 projects with great results when glued and screwed in place. Once I even used a paint stir stick glued on the inside of a cabinet that was racking with great results. I guess what I am trying to say is whatever you can glue across the joints on the inside will add a tone of stability. Please show us your progress.

Cool. Will definitely be adding some kind of bracing in the corners and will certainly add an update post here when I have built it (will be a couple of weeks at least though haha).

 

[cope413]

Cool. Just a heads up, glue doesn't really add anything to pocket holes... gluing end grain doesn't do really anything for you. There are videos and data out there showing as much.

 

[scott021467]

That's a really nice, clean stand I agree that a stand doesn't need to be built like a tank depending on what materials you have access to. Where I live plywood is really, really expensive and the thickest sheets I can easily get are only 17mm. Even if 17mm was thick enough (I don't know if it is) building a stand out of just 17mm ply would cost me around 2-3x times that of a 2x4 stand that is just skinned in 12mm ply.

Looks like I will just have to add some braces to each corner then. The only place I can't add braces will be at the bottom of the middle support going between the front and back. But I can add them on all other corners (including the chillier side).

Do the braces need to be quite that big?



So your tank just sits on the cross braces between the frame and you have no vertical braces directly under that tank? Is there any flex in the stand? I was under the impression that the important part of that design (that Joey and a lot of others use) is that the corners of the tank sit over and transfer their weight directly down through the vertical corner supports.

The center of the stand has a very strong brace and the whole stand is crossed braced more than Joey has in his. I have had the tank on it for just under a year with no flex.....knock wood..lol