Randy's DIY Two-Part, Ionic Balancing Issues?

[Rickyrooz]

Randy, I have been reading up on Tropic Marin's new balling method additives and Aquaforest about the importance of the ionic balance with two part dosing. I have been using your recipe #1 but my question to you is, is your recipe balanced for the slow build up of NaCl? I assume the magnesium component is not pure and will likely contain some minor trace elements. I notice that in the Tropic Marin method the magnesium mixture also contains potassium. Aquaforest does not list the ingredients in their Reef Mineral salt but along with their other additives that are recommended with their version of two part dosing they also contain strontium, potassium, iodine, fluorine as well as the minor trace elements. With all three methods, Randy's DIY Two-Part, Tropic Marin Balling salts and Aquaforest, all methods will slowly raise the NaCl level over time but from the list of ingredients only Aquaforest will raise the major and minor trace elements along with the NaCl rise making it the only true "ionic balanced" method. What are your thoughts? Is not having the trace elements in your DIY mixture going to be then end of a reef tank or will monthly water changes be sufficient in replacing the depleted trace elements? Are trace elements that important for coral coloration and growth or is it just the new trend in reefing? If I add strontium chloride to my calcium mixture and potassium chloride to the magnesium mixture and dose Seachem Reef Trace/Seachem Reef Plus weekly will that be a "balanced" method? Thank you in advance for your time and response.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do not be fooled by claims by companies. A good commercial two part such as B-ionic is (or at least reasonably claims to be) perfectly balanced with respect to major, minor, and trace elements.

Note that a balanced additive does not "add" these things if they are, or become, deficient. They simply makes sure that the dosing itself is not altering them by pushing up sodium and chloride relative to all of the others. So, for example, if iron is used by algae, it is not being replaced when dosing a perfectly balanced additive. But the additive does ensure that it wont drop simply in the course of using it for calcium and alkalinity.

My two part, when dosed exactly as I prescribed originally (magnesium included) is balanced with respect to sodium and chloride not rising with respect to the other major ions (e.g., sulfate, calcium, magnesium, potassium), but not necessarily some of the minor and/or trace elements. With respect to trace elements, it is as likely to have too much as too little, IMO.

In my original recipe, potassium was provided almost perfectly by the Dowflake. I cannot be sure how much potassium is in any other calcium product used to make it.

I personally do not think strontium dosing is useful, and I'd only dose potassium if it became depleted (there's no a priori reason to assume it does and it never did in my tank).

 

[Rickyrooz]

Great, thank you very much for your reply Randy. I will continue to use your recipe.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Great, thank you very much for your reply Randy. I will continue to use your recipe.

You're welcome.

I discuss issues around balance here:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

specifically here:

Residue Remaining from Recipe #1 when using Recipe #1, Part 3A
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php#22

 

[Lou Ekus]

Randy, I have been reading up on Tropic Marin's new balling method additives and Aquaforest about the importance of the ionic balance with two part dosing. I have been using your recipe #1 but my question to you is, is your recipe balanced for the slow build up of NaCl? I assume the magnesium component is not pure and will likely contain some minor trace elements. I notice that in the Tropic Marin method the magnesium mixture also contains potassium. Aquaforest does not list the ingredients in their Reef Mineral salt but along with their other additives that are recommended with their version of two part dosing they also contain strontium, potassium, iodine, fluorine as well as the minor trace elements. With all three methods, Randy's DIY Two-Part, Tropic Marin Balling salts and Aquaforest, all methods will slowly raise the NaCl level over time but from the list of ingredients only Aquaforest will raise the major and minor trace elements along with the NaCl rise making it the only true "ionic balanced" method. What are your thoughts? Is not having the trace elements in your DIY mixture going to be then end of a reef tank or will monthly water changes be sufficient in replacing the depleted trace elements? Are trace elements that important for coral coloration and growth or is it just the new trend in reefing? If I add strontium chloride to my calcium mixture and potassium chloride to the magnesium mixture and dose Seachem Reef Trace/Seachem Reef Plus weekly will that be a "balanced" method? Thank you in advance for your time and response.

@Rickyrooz Randy is exactly correct about being careful when listening to manufacturers "claims". That being said, please understand that he also is a proponent of his DIY two part method, and carries some bios in its favor similar to manufacturers.

One VERY important note in relation to your post is that Tropic Marin Balling Method products are the only Balling products made under the direct supervision of the created of the method, Hans-Werner Balling. And are his exact formula. They include ALL minor and trace elements found in natural sea water and address ALL of the ionic imbalance of excess NaCl you find in most other systems. There are no other "Balling" products that are made exactly like that. (Sorry for the company plug, but it is a very important distinction)

If you would like any information about anything to do with the true Balling Method, I can always be reached in the office at 413-367-0101.

Good luck with the tank!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Rickyrooz That being said, please understand that he also is a proponent of his DIY two part method, and carries some bios in its favor similar to manufacturers.

Actually, I prefer limewater (kalkwasser) and don't use a two part.

 

[marke]

Is it possible we are getting more trace than we need from the salt mixes we use and the food we add? See Randys article on toxic trace reduction. Do we really need to add trace? Which trace might be depleted? If any? If 2 people have 100 gallon systems and one doses 100ml per day, the other 15 ml per day all based on consumption by corals. Then which one is getting to little or too much trace? Are you testing for trace? Might it not be more important to pursue purity or lack of impurities in raw material? Would the FDA allow non USP products to be consumed by human or pets? NO! So why give it to your corals!! Dont look for the unkown secret little ingredient-----focus on the big 3 Ca Kh and Mg. Then watch nutrients-specifically PO4. Stop looking for the unkown that you already have tooo much of? Just a quality opinion for you! By the way----every ME products is made under the direct supervision of SPS growing guru-- Mr Mark Esquenazi and they are his special formula.
PS: A sodium chloride imbalance just mean add a little rodi water by testing salinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it possible we are getting more trace than we need from the salt mixes we use and the food we add? See Randys article on toxic trace reduction.

Maybe. That's been a debate for a long time.

That said, despite 1% daily water changes and normal feeding, my Triton test results didn't show a troubling excess of anything, and a few elements were deficient relative to natural seawater.

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley
http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

PS: A sodium chloride imbalance just mean add a little rodi water by testing salinity.

Except that approach, which solves the salinity issues, drives down everything else too (sulfate, iron, vanadium, etc.). That is why an optimal two part should contain all elements to leave a seawater residue, not a sodium chloride-only residue.

 

[Rick.45cal]

@Rickyrooz Randy is exactly correct about being careful when listening to manufacturers "claims". That being said, please understand that he also is a proponent of his DIY two part method, and carries some bios in its favor similar to manufacturers.

One VERY important note in relation to your post is that Tropic Marin Balling Method products are the only Balling products made under the direct supervision of the created of the method, Hans-Werner Balling. And are his exact formula. They include ALL minor and trace elements found in natural sea water and address ALL of the ionic imbalance of excess NaCl you find in most other systems. There are no other "Balling" products that are made exactly like that. (Sorry for the company plug, but it is a very important distinction)

If you would like any information about anything to do with the true Balling Method, I can always be reached in the office at 413-367-0101.

Good luck with the tank!

Your Balling salts made me a believer sir! Thank you and please pass the thanks along to Hans as well!

 

[GoVols]

This has been very long haul debate and very heated at times over the years.

I've used a lot of 2 part and the AF Comp 1+ 2+ 3+ balling.

Liked them all and at time the AF Comp was the best but I have never tried TM balling products.

I got upset with AF's reef salt (consistency) and I quit their Comp (1 -3) too, as a matter of principle.

I wanted TM salt quality and consistency for AF pricing and it just did not work out for myself. Maybe I expected too much from AF?

So I've been using the Red Sea program since last fall for the first time and back to regular IO mix in the past two months.

Well, my corals speak for them selves and I'm hooked.

I use their Big-3 and their Colors program so I don't know if I'd call it 2 part or balling but I'm a very happy customer.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Lou Ekus]

Your Balling salts made me a believer sir! Thank you and please pass the thanks along to Hans as well!

Will do. Thank you!