Randy's thoughts on trace elements

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you, @Randy Holmes-Farley , for another fascinating read. Since iodine and ICP came up in your replies, I am wondering if you might comment on the statement being thrown around that “ICP-OES by its very nature cannot reliably detect iodine levels in seawater.” Is this statement true in your opinion?

Following up on Christoph’s comment, is phosphorous especially high?

 

[Troylee]

Thank you Christoph.

It’s funny I watched a video on @SBB Corals instagram page and he said he has a way to test iodine perfectly at home! Doesn’t give the secret out just says shoot him a dm… hmmm :face-with-monocle:

 

[Lasse]

The problem of oxidative stress occurs in corals when nitrate is available and other nutrients are scarce.

I agree - and in this the N/P quota can be useful. There was one scientific report that claim that in PO4 concentrations below 0.03 ppm - rather low NO3 concentrations could lead to P starvation and bleaching, However - above 0.03 - 0.04 ppm PO4 - higher NO3 concentration seems not to harm anything .

What happens if both, nitrate and ammonium, are present as nutrients in your "model"? Will algae grow or won't they?

IMO - the unwanted algae will have an advantage. My theory is - In a time span benthic algae reproduction ability will concour out the zooxanthellae possibility to use the fast NH4/NH3 source and the zooxanthellae still have to rely on the more energy depended NO3 as N source that many benthic algae have no/poor developed mechanism for. IMO - in order to understand how it works in an ecological system as an aquarium you need to have an understanding for population dynamics, ecological principles, evolutionary pathways and take these together in a holistic approach

The oxidant function will suppress iron availability and in this way inhibit algal and cyanobacterial growth.

I´m not sure on this - I is one of the persons that use oxydator (H2O2 doser) in my tank. My redox potential is between 350 - 550 mV (a rather oxidative environment with other words) I dose iron. But I have cyanobacteria now and than and my algae is growing like it should - no sign of iron limitation by oxidation

But it is interesting that you mention this. There is a common knowledge that NO3 concentration above 2 ppm can depress Cyanobacteria blooms. (at least the bloom of some species

I guess these are subtleties that don't pass the language barrier.

For sure - and there is a cultural barriers too.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Thales]

Where?

In the the statement I keep asking about.

"Corals will grow on the phosphate and trace elements and will outcomplete green algae at nitrogen."

Is this your opinion? It is stated like an actionable solution to combat problem algae both in form and context, so I am have been trying to find out if you have evidence of it happening in a aquarium. When you finally answered, you seemed to say that no one has tried it, but then you went on to talk about how you don't like opinions but that your opinions are ok.

Is this your opnion or have do you have support for coral growing by being feed phosphate and trace elements while algae is being out competed because of low N in an aquariums?

What point exactly is annoying you? Concluding from your reactions there is some fact or opinion you don't want to accept and that is causing you coginitive dissonance.

I am finding it annoying that you won't answer direct questions directly, and then you talk about how you don't like opinions while posting your own opinions, then making an argument of your own authority, then telling me that you don't care, then telling me that you have concluded that I think something I don't think or have said. All instead of directly anwswering a direct question.

I suppose this could be a language issue, and if so, I apologize.

 

[Lasse]

IMO - the unwanted algae will have an advantage. My theory is - In a time span benthic algae reproduction ability will concour out the zooxanthellae possibility to use the fast NH4/NH3 source and the zooxanthellae still have to rely on the more energy depended NO3 as N source that many benthic algae have no/poor developed mechanism for. IMO - in order to understand how it works in an ecological system as an aquarium you need to have an understanding for population dynamics, ecological principles, evolutionary pathways and take these together in a holistic approach

I did one more somersault off this

If we put in grazers in this mix above - maybe addition of NH4/NH3 can favour coral growth. The grazers will limit the growth of the algal population and thus leave NH4/NH3 for the zooxanthellae. But without grazers - the algae will take over because of its fast grow rate compared with zooxanthellae inside the corals

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jda]

I read a lot and have had some really good talks with some folks in Florida that are all over the reefs trying to save them. I have never really heard too much about all all of those coral species that, on their own, took over and displaced the algae that was growing there. In the gulf there are still places where no3 and po4 are at traces and also plenty with elevated waste products from terrestrial runoff... and also places in between. Have not heard of this in any place whatsoever.

I still have never seen or heard of any viable option to limit algae without hurting corals. Limit the coral consumers while raising the algae consumers - this is it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It’s funny I watched a video on @SBB Corals instagram page and he said he has a way to test iodine perfectly at home! Doesn’t give the secret out just says shoot him a dm… hmmm :face-with-monocle:

Here’s a test:

AN ACCURATE AND PRECISE METHOD FOR MEASURING IODINE

ABOUT THE ARTICLE: The article describes an accurate and precise method and it's development, for measuring the level of Iodine in a saltwater aquarium. It is a follow-up to an article written in 2021. The current article describes an improved method but using the same basic ideas as the 2021...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

I kept my phosphate at 0ppb with GFO and nitrate clear with salifert (vodka), and I had no trouble growing hair algae (derbasia).

The hair algae ONLY went away when I added a desjardini tang. No other herbivore (naso, orange shoulder, Mexican turbos, urchins) consumed it.

I fed my tank with frozen food about once a day, but I kept my nutrients at 0. Even so, the hair algae thrived until I found the proper herbivore.

I hope this helps you.

Here‘s the before and after added the sailfin (desjardini)

The hair algae was growing in all areas around my rockwork. This was just one area.

Before:

After:

IMHO - the best way to get rid of 'algae' - is other stuff shading the rock - in your second picture - there is still algae - about (approximately) the same - in the lit areas - however much of the old areas are now covered by coral growth.

 

[Hans-Werner]

In the the statement I keep asking about.

"Corals will grow on the phosphate and trace elements and will outcomplete green algae at nitrogen."

Is this your opinion? It is stated like an actionable solution to combat problem algae both in form and context, so I am have been trying to find out if you have evidence of it happening in a aquarium. When you finally answered, you seemed to say that no one has tried it, but then you went on to talk about how you don't like opinions but that your opinions are ok.

Is this your opnion or have do you have support for coral growing by being feed phosphate and trace elements while algae is being out competed because of low N in an aquariums?

No, it is not opinion, it is the result of three decades of experimentation, I mean really by adding something in a controlled way, watching the results and repeating the experiment in the same or other tank or varying the ratios or concentrations.

And it is the logic conclusion of scientific findings:

According to scientific findings there are three elements that most likely limit growth in reefs:

- Nitrogen as available nitrogen compounds
- Phosphorus as phosphate
- Iron

- I have linked scientific articles that show nitrogen is the limiting nutrient for algae.

- Other articles show that phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals under the same conditions or in other experiments.

- Other scientific articles show coral reef decline with increasing nitrogen runoff in Florida reefs.

It is pure logic that you can't phosphate limit algal growth without harming the corals just because under the same conditions corals are phosphate limited while algae are nitrogen limited. This is just as mandatory as the result of a mathematical equation. I know that many reefers seem to think different but this is opinion. Show me that someone has made successful experiments that show the opposite including the numbers.

On the numbers: Of course there is also scientific research on the nutrient uptake dynamics of corals and algae with half saturation constants and saturating concentrations that clearly show that the nitrate concentrations usually discussed have nothing to do with limiting nutrients or nutrients at all. This also is not opinion, it is based on scientific research and biochemical data.

The same findings that show that under the same conditions corals are phosphate limited while turf algae are nitrogen limited say it is possible to nitrogen limit algal growth without doing severe damage to corals. This is also mandatory.

In my own experiments I see and it is a widespread experience that iron (or "trace element supply" frequently dominated by iron supply) will support algal growth and cyanbacterial growth more than coral growth. This means of course you have to supply the trace elements in certain proportions that do not support algal and cyanobacterial growth more than coral growth.

Where is there opinion?

And I am not obligated to spend excess time looking for the articles for you or always wait for your questions. I don't get payed by the forum or by you. Maybe you don't, but I have other obligations also. Make your own experiments and prove me wrong, then we will discuss. Or show me your numbers and tell me your experience. Just asking questions and doing unbashed claims seems rude to me.

 

[Lasse]

First of all - I love those discussions above - it force me out from my comfort zone and force me to read articles I have not seen before. However one of the links above is to one article I have seen before and IMO is one of the most important scientific reports done that directly refer to our hobby. Done by scientist with roths in the hobby.

But please - @Hans-Werner and @Thales - you both are old enough to remember the saying from the 60:ties "Love, peace and missunderstanding" ;):):);) Both of you have my full respect for the huge contributions you both have done in the hobby.

Note - this do not mean that I always agree with your opinions even if I am a newbie compared with two of the hobbies giants fighting in a third´s sub forum :):);)

- I have linked scientific articles that show nitrogen is the limiting nutrient for algae.

Yes - and that is not surprising knowing that N/P atomic quota can exceed 80:1 in many benthic algae species (compare with average 16/1 in phytoplankton). However of the links you have give about algae growth - the predominant N species have been NH4/NH3. Maybe it also that way that in the aquariums you have done your observations in that the N waste from your fishes is huge enough not to create N limitations (regardless of N species) but the P waste is not. You need to add P as PO4.

However in you links - there is one that address the N contribution to corals from the water column in a controlled long time experiment. They use NO3 as N source and the construction of the experiment excludes other N sources - inorganic or organic. In part of the experiment they use NO3 with traceable N content. Let us examine their experiment and see if there is any lessons to learn. I will do this in this thread because the discussion in this thread should be about trace elements - not macro elements

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Thales]

No, it is not opinion, it is the result of three decades of experimentation, I mean really by adding something in a controlled way, watching the results and repeating the experiment in the same or other tank or varying the ratios or concentrations.

Great. That’s the kind of evidence i am looking for. Please show us. This is all I have been asking for in this entire back and forth

Make your own experiments and prove me wrong, then we will discuss.

To do that, which is not actually my goal, I would need to know what you did, and what the results were. Show us the result of what you did – without that there’s no way to support or question what you’re saying. This is what I’ve been asking for since the outset. Not trying to trap you I’m not trying to gotcha you, you are respected person in this field. You made a claim and I want to know what you did in aquariums that makes you support that claim

Or show me your numbers and tell me your experience. Just asking questions and doing unbashed claims seems rude to me.

I have not claimed anything in my discussion with you. I’m trying to see the evidence you are using to support the claims you were making actually working in aquariums. Please show us your numbers that support the specific claim that I keep asking you about working in aquariums.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Great. That’s the kind of evidence i am looking for. Please show us. This is all I have been asking for in this entire back and forth


To do that, which is not actually my goal, I would need to know what you did, and what the results were. Show us the result of what you did – without that there’s no way to support or question what you’re saying. This is what I’ve been asking for since the outset. Not trying to trap you I’m not trying to gotcha you, you are respected person in this field. You made a claim and I want to know what you did in aquariums that makes you support that claim

I have not claimed anything in my discussion with you. I’m trying to see the evidence you are using to support the claims you were making actually working in aquariums. Please show us your numbers that support the specific claim that I keep asking you about working in aquariums.

I have linked scientific articles that support my own experiences. It is not usual for companies to publish their results. I am an employee, I have no rights to publish company's secrets. Can you name me a company that publishes the results of their work? Or do you mean I better should stay quiet?

However, I think I have mentioned before that in our organic carbon dosing products the ratio of N to P is 7:1. This is one result of our experiments.

This is something I have published (It fits in here well since it is on trace elements! :D ). Other publications are published in talks, in the German "Koralle" magazine etc.. A few ones have been translated for the US "Coral" magazine.

Which claims do you mean exactly? What are we talking about? You stay in the rough. Give me an exact claim I have made and maybe we can talk about it.

Hey, you might get the second one on my ignore list. This suggestion was not bad. Thank you!

 

[Thales]

It is not usual for companies to publish their results. I am an employee, I have no rights to publish companie's secrets. Can you name me a company that publishes the results of their work? Or do you mean I better should stay quiet?

I had no idea what you were talking about was secret.

Which claims do you mean exactly? What are we talking about? You stay in the rough. Give me an exact claim I have made and maybe we can talk about it.

"Corals will grow on the phosphate and trace elements and will outcomplete green algae at nitrogen."
This has been in almost every response I have posted.

Our conversation starts on the top of page 6 of this thread.

Hey, you might get the second one on my ignore list. This suggestion was not bad. Thank you!

I think you are confusing what I’ve been asking you for with a whole lot of stuff that I haven’t said or thought. I understand that that this can happen in threads like this, but I think it would be cool if you didn’t dismiss me for asking for support regarding a claim you made. This is of course just my opinion you can ignore whoever you want for whatever reason you like.

 

[michealprater]

Are nitrates and phosphates considered trace elements? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are nitrates and phosphates considered trace elements? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Not a dumb question. They sometimes are and sometimes aren't, depending on concentration (above 1 ppm is not generally considered a trace element) , but I was not meaning to include them in this discussion since they have mostly different issues.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Are nitrates and phosphates considered trace elements? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

In biology they are macronutrients (N and P), not trace elements.

From the concentrations in reef waters N and P could be viewed as trace elements but usually they are not, because they are generally considered macronutrients.

 

[michealprater]

Not to sound rude, but this trace element thread was hijacked and is mostly a debate about nitrates and phosphates. Seems like it should be in its own thread.

 

[Lasse]

Seems like it should be in its own thread.

Agree - I have decided to continue with this discussion in this thread - its started by myself and I think the discussion fit well into that report. I will soon do post in that thread.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This is something I have published (It fits in here well since it is on trace elements! :D ). Other publications are published in talks, in the German "Koralle" magazine etc.. A few ones have been translated for the US "Coral" magazine.

This article from Hans-Werner Balling, Max Jansen and Piet Sondervan was published before ICP analyses was common. I think that it is well wort to read it through because together with the findings of "farming coral animals" - the importance of trace elements in the water column is for me very clear. If the findings in Jörg Wiedenmann´s & al article is valid as a major pathway for growth of photosynthesizing corals - the pathway for trace elements should be the same as for N and P.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[mcgullen]

Following up on Christoph’s comment, is phosphorous especially high?

PO4 is around 0.05 as measured by Hanna HI774. Not sure if that relates to phosphorous in this context.