Reducing Phosphates in Tank

[BroccoliFarmer]

Bottoming out my phosphates and nitrate may have cause my dino issue (nut I'm still. Dealing with them) and now dealing with gha

Im out. Good luck with your situation.

 

[astefane]

Ok, now I think I understand, your past comments

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Ok, now I think I understand, your past comments

I know it is a hard concept...I had this battle constantly and it takes a while. Treat these as two separate issues instead of conflating and it will make a lot more sense. You probably had and still do have a nutrient issue. Many people shoot for 0.03 - 0.15 Phosphate and between 5-15 Nitrate depending on your situation. High nutrients cause algae. Low nutrients cause Dinos.

As such, you probably had high nutrients which allowed your GHA to take hold which you are still dealing with. The GHA can survive primarily off your nitrates and what little phosphates you are putting in the system. The GHA is so starved for phosphates that it is consuming them as fast as you can put them in. Because it is doing this..your phosphates are bottoming out. This has two affects:

1. The lack of phosphates will limit the uptake of Nitrates..which is why your nitrates will most likely continually go up without water changes.
2. The lack of phosphates is killing your good bacteria which is allowing Dinos to outcompete.

As i said, put in a good CUC to passively deal with your GHA..but whatever you do..get ahead of your dinos or be ready to start over.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Ok. Other than high phosphates what else causes gha????

What allows GHA and other nuisances to grow is basically everything, the reason you are going to fail is because you only looking at phosphates, while you were able to deplete your system from po4 that is inorganic you will never be able to deplete your system from phosphorus which is organic, most medias are fairly poor at absorbing organic phosphates that will allow nuisance algae like dinoflagellates and GHA to grow stronger without any type of competition. The main organism that was competing with the algae for nutrients is now dormant as they need po4 to be able to build tissue.
if you really want to get rid of GHA and the diatoms increase your po4 to 0.05 or higher carry on adding nopox to the system and lastly add some cuc.

the hole thing is fairly more complex although I won’t be loosing much time writing it just to be ignored as folks tent to completely ignore it. If you want a way out the above will take you there.

 

[noobreefer2]

What phosphate test kit do you use? I used the Salifert for a while, and it was absolute garbage, and was reading zero all the time so I invested in a Hanna ulr and it made my life so much easier.

As others have said, if you do have dinos, it is probably because your phosphates are zero, and I would feed more, adjust your skimmer, turn down your refugium light cycle and maybe even dose a phosphate supplement like neophos.

For killing GHA, I would use vibrant. There are MANY opinions about its efficacy/content, and I wouldn't go crazy if you have a ton of corals, but it will definitely take care of that GHA. Keep in mind that it will also lower your nutrients (nitrates and phosphates), and I don't know its effects on dinos.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My current test Is coming up as zero or near zero. Everything I've seen so far telling me the gha is consuming all the phosphates that is why my test are coming back the way there are.
because of the amount of gha I am assuming I have a high amount of phosphate in the tank.

GHA is generally supported by phosphate. Macro-algae however will consume it. If you suspect GHA plays a role, pull as much as you can by hand and add some snails such as : Astrea, turbo grazer, cerith and even a pencil urchin and some Caribbean blue leg hermits to consume the rest.
Phosphates are released into your aquarium when fish waste, uneaten foods, and other organic matter break down and impact bioload and contributes to algae growth. I encourage you to find if you are getting false reading results by taking a good size water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use Api kits and see what readings they come up with and to compare with yours.

 

[HBtank]

The solution to GHA and most algae issues is a good cleanup crew. I would argue an algea free tank is not a healthy tank. It’s when it’s a species of algae nothing will eat that it truly becomes a “nuisance”, and even then it usually is solved with another addition to the CUC.

In that context, you want measurable phosphates, but you might lower nitrates a little, but 30 ppm doesn’t concern me that much. You are likely causing other issues with phosphates that low.

 

[HBtank]

I do 15gal water every 3 weeks,
Clean the Sponges between the baffles weekly,
Clean my Protein Skimmer every 3 weeks.

Feeding, 1 cube of Brine shrimp or Blood worms,
+ Hikari large pellets (slowly drop pellets until my Niger Trigger & Yellow Tail Damsel) stops eating)
+ Pe Mysis 2x day for a pair of clown (only once when they are not laying eggs)
+ Pe Mysis 1x for PJ Cardinal (when lights are off)

+ Small Pellets (3x week) for cleaner shrimp in the Sump

Blue urchin (slowly eating the GHA) & Strawberry conch

So the extent of your cleanup crew in your 110g tank is one urchin (Tuxedo I am guessing) and a conch?

THIS is your problem, if true.

 

[areefer01]

Herbivore issue. Don't frontload by adding a metric ton for a short term fix as they will end up starving out. However you should look into herbivores. Sounds like you don't have enough. Me personally:

• Test water a couple times a week and graph to visualize
• Examine current herbivore inventory
• Purchase a couple more "quality" ones that are not fish
• If long term stock list includes fish - then add. Plenty that will assist here
• Manual removal can be done
• Do not reach for a bottle - if you don't get herbivores balanced, and your maintenance routine in check this will repeat

Remember we hobbyist are trying to create an environment that is growing corals and keeping fish alive. This also happens to be the same environment algae thrives in. In the wild there are herbivores to manage. The reefs that do not have herbivores are, well, dead...

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

I would trust the herbivores before I would try Vibrant. A good CUC will take care of your GHA in a couple days / weeks. An underpower CUC will leave you will some nasty algae issues. I learned this lesson when I first started out. Couldnt for the life of me figure out why i had so much GHA. Went to Reefclearners.org, got 30+ hermits and a tuxedo urchin and a few turbo snails...poof. Magically gone. Was actually entertaining watching the hermits swarm a rock, pick it clean then move on to the next.

 

[astefane]

What kind of cuc would be recommended? I've purchased various types in the past and they all seem to disapear within a few weeks (not sure if they end up killing each other or my trigger gets hungry in the middle of the night)

 

[astefane]

Light bio load
Niger trigger.
2 clowns
Pj cardinal
Damasl.
Urchin,
Conch
Cleaner shrimp

 

[kierstin1993]

But i need to deal with one thing at time,

I was dosing silicate's but the GHA has gotten out of control. (Silicate have been testing close to zero for a while now, I haven't dosed silicates for 2 months now)


I was also dosing All-for-reef ~15ml daily, to keep my few coral alive, while i've been dealing with everything else)

ok first off you would benefit from a weekly 20-25 gallon water change, since you have dinos and GHA you could probably do 15~ twice a week.
Secondly, it’s not completely accurate that no phosphates cause Dino’s. That’s something most hobbyists are misinformed about, the reason people believe this is because by the time Dino’s shows up, it’s eaten up all your nutrients. There was a video explaining the Science behind this and why low nutrients don’t necessarily cause Dinos but I can’t find it again for the life of me.
For you to have Dino’s and GHA and still be reading 30ppm nitrates probably means, if the Dino’s and GHA weren’t there eating most of it up, your nitrates would be through the roof!
if you can, try to reduce the amount you are feeding, it your tank is lightly stocked, this seems like it may be a lot of food
I can’t stress increasing your water changes enough. This will be the number one thing you can do to help lower those nutrients.
I also recommend looking into microbacter 7 as it might help with the GHA and dinos (so I’ve heard). I personally used vibrant to remove bryopsis when I had it but I’m not sure how this effects dinos.
But again, water changes are really important here! Once the GHA starts to die off it can cause a nutrient spike which is what you are trying to fix. If your not doing frequent water changes the dying algae will cause more algae to grow due to the nutrient spike.So at the very least you will need larger (20-25g) water changes weekly.
BRS has videos on how to lower your nitrates, what causes nitrate/phosphates to be high, and other related stuff. If you want, I’d try looking at those.

also to add to other’s comments, turbo snails Are great. I like to go to reef cleaners.com, they sell some of the most affordable snails I’ve found and they will give you info about what types of algae the snails eat. Avoid hermit crabs as they will kill your snails and mostly just eat left over food. I recommend getting snails for algae and snails that will eat leftover food.
Also if your current clean up crew doesn’t really eat the GHA, consider it could be bryopsis. This was the issue I had.

so to wrap this up:
1. increase water changes!
2. Start dosing some benifical bacteria such as microbacter
3. Lower your feedings
4. Buy a variety of snails (I’d buy a good amount since the trigger may be eating them)
5. Water changes! My tank is always at its healthiest when I do weekly 20 gallon water changes. I have a 125g.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

There’s a lot of misinformation around dinos. Scientifically, dinoflagellates are actually eating nutrients up so fast it gives the appearance you’ve bottomed out.

ok first off you would benefit from a weekly 20-25 gallon water change, since you have dinos and GHA you could probably do 15~ twice a week.
Secondly, it’s not actually true that no phosphates cause Dino’s. That’s something most hobbyists are misinformed about, the reason people believe this is because by the time Dino’s shows up, it’s eaten up all your nutrients. There was a video explaining the Science behind this and why low nutrients don’t cause Dinos but I can’t find it again for the life of me.
For you to have Dino’s and GHA and still be reading 30ppm nitrates probably means, if the Dino’s and GHA weren’t there eating most of it up, your nitrates would be through the roof!
if you can, try to reduce the amount you are feeding, it your tank is lightly stocked, this seems like it may be a lot of food but I don’t know all the fish you have so use your best judgment here.
I can’t stress increasing your water changes enough. This will be the number one thing you can do to help lower those nutrients.
I also recommend looking into microbacter 7 as it might help with the GHA (so I’ve heard). I personally used vibrant to remove bryopsis when I had it. But again, water changes are really important here! Once the GHA starts to die off it can cause a nutrient spike which is what you are trying to fix. If your not doing frequent water changes the dying algae will cause more algae to grow due to the nutrient spike.So at the very least you will need larger (20-25g) water changes weekly.
BRS has videos on how to lower your nitrates, what causes nitrate/phosphates to be high, and other related stuff. If you want, I’d try looking at those.

OP - Follow this at your peril. Your tank, your call.

 

[kierstin1993]

OP - Follow this at your peril. Your tank, your call.

Oops! Didn’t mean to tag you lol
and this is absolutely accurate. Like I’ve worked at an aquarium in the past under a marine biologist who would back this up. I’m not saying low nutrients is never the case, but when you have this level of algae problems…all I can say is clearly this tank hasn’t bottomed out in nutrients. The dinos are most likely part of the reason the test is reading 0 phosphates. I think it can really depend on the species of dinos.

And why would telling them to dose beneficial bacteria and do more frequent water changes cause “peril”? Lol
even if I was wrong about low nutrients not being the cause, (which the GHA and Dino’s are clearly eating the nutrients here) this advice is still solid. Everyone knows water changes are the best natural way to help a tank that is over come with algae.

 

[kierstin1993]

I’m gonna explain this the way it was explained to me just for clarification.

there are Multiple species of Dinoflagellates. Some species (I was led to believe not all) live within the coral itself. When the nutrients are too low and the coral can’t get food it expels the dinoflagellates. So yes, I’m this case, low nutrients can cause dinos.
However, in other cases people get certain species of dinos and they don’t have low nutrients. So a blanket statement like “low nutrients cause dinos” just isn’t accurate. I just wasn’t trying to get into this level of detail.
Furthermore, if you do have a Dinoflagellate problem caused by low nutrients, adding more nutrients at this point only feeds them. This poster is feeding foods that contains phosphates, are they not? So where are the phosphates going? ALL forms of algae are eating them. The ones that live in the coral as well as the ones that are a nuisance on the rocks/sand.

Even furthermore, we are not actually sure that the poster has Dinoflagellates, have they been tested? Because some types of cyanobacteria look a lot like dinoflagellates. So in the end, the best thing they can do is more frequent water changes and dosing beneficial bacteria.
I’m not a scientist, so if do you know one that can give you more insight then utilize that! My info could very well be outdated! However, this is how a marine biologist explained dinos and the controversy about high/low nutrients to me.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

I’m gonna explain this the way it was explained to me just for clarification.

there are Multiple species of Dinoflagellates. Some species (I was led to believe not all) live within the coral itself. When the nutrients are too low and the coral can’t get food it expels the dinoflagellates. So yes, I’m this case, low nutrients can cause dinos.
However, in other cases people get certain species of dinos and they don’t have low nutrients. So a blanket statement like “low nutrients cause dinos” just isn’t accurate. I just wasn’t trying to get into this level of detail.
Furthermore, if you do have a Dinoflagellate problem caused by low nutrients, adding more nutrients at this point only feeds them. This poster is feeding foods that contains phosphates, are they not? So where are the phosphates going? ALL forms of algae are eating them. The ones that live in the coral as well as the ones that are a nuisance on the rocks/sand.

Even furthermore, we are not actually sure that the poster has Dinoflagellates, have they been tested? Because some types of cyanobacteria look a lot like dinoflagellates. So in the end, the best thing they can do is more frequent water changes and dosing beneficial bacteria.
I’m not a scientist, so if do you know one that can give you more insight then utilize that! My info could very well be outdated! However, this is how a marine biologist explained dinos and the controversy about high/low nutrients to me.

Couple of things.

• OP confirmed he/she/it had dinos.
• Agree that low nutrients do not directly cause dinos...but they do provide an environment that makes it easier for the dinos to outcompete the good bacteria. As such, people make the simplifying statement that low nutrients cause dinos to save typing and make the concept easier to understand. Dinos are a scourge and depending on the type has different triggers and treatment methods...but nothing about low nutrients 'causing' dinos is inaccurate, especially given the long anecdotal evidence and experience by people in this forum who have lived through it.
• My biggest issue with your comment is about the vibrant. That was what my comment was about. Although it will kill your GHA, it will also kill other stuff in the tank and most likely cause a nutrient spike as the GHA dies off. although OP claims he/she/it has a large output mechanism, part of that mechanism is the excess GHA which is about to be removed from the system. Vibrant is really going to be a problem if just suggesting that a newbie use it. yes..vibrant has its place with people who know what to do with it...but for someone suffering from a GHA problem that is lacking the basic understanding of water chemistry should stay away.

 

[HBtank]

What kind of cuc would be recommended? I've purchased various types in the past and they all seem to disapear within a few weeks (not sure if they end up killing each other or my trigger gets hungry in the middle of the night)

Turbo snails and trochus snails. May have to manually remove some long GHA to get it started. An herbevoire fish in the mix would also help (and the most likely to just straight up eat it all), a one spot Foxface or bristletooth tang species are OK for a tank that size, and certain goby/blenny species can assist with GHA. I like reef hermits too (and personally have emerald crabs, but they can be more troublesome), but I have a feeling any small crab will be the most likely to “disappear”. I also like cerith snails, but I think they are the most likely to become snacks for a Trigger.

For reference I have 10 of each species of snail (30 total), 10 hermits, 4 emeralds, and my bristletooth Tang. It’s an 80g tank.

Note that some will eat GHA more directly (for instance my bristletooth does) and others will just generally suppress algae once you get it controlled.

It is hit or miss with triggers, it could be an issue if hungry.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m gonna explain this the way it was explained to me just for clarification.

there are Multiple species of Dinoflagellates. Some species (I was led to believe not all) live within the coral itself. When the nutrients are too low and the coral can’t get food it expels the dinoflagellates. So yes, I’m this case, low nutrients can cause dinos.
However, in other cases people get certain species of dinos and they don’t have low nutrients. So a blanket statement like “low nutrients cause dinos” just isn’t accurate. I just wasn’t trying to get into this level of detail.
Furthermore, if you do have a Dinoflagellate problem caused by low nutrients, adding more nutrients at this point only feeds them. This poster is feeding foods that contains phosphates, are they not? So where are the phosphates going? ALL forms of algae are eating them. The ones that live in the coral as well as the ones that are a nuisance on the rocks/sand.

Even furthermore, we are not actually sure that the poster has Dinoflagellates, have they been tested? Because some types of cyanobacteria look a lot like dinoflagellates. So in the end, the best thing they can do is more frequent water changes and dosing beneficial bacteria.
I’m not a scientist, so if do you know one that can give you more insight then utilize that! My info could very well be outdated! However, this is how a marine biologist explained dinos and the controversy about high/low nutrients to me.

Let me propose my theory (competition), which I think is supported by all known ways of getting and getting rid of dinos.

Any bare surfaces in a reef aquarium are going to be colonized by something.

When nutrients are in great supply, a larger number of species can colonize these surfaces, including algae and bacteria (and dinos).

When nutrients are in very short supply, the list of organisms that can thrive is much shorter, and problem dinos appear to be one that can colonize such surfaces, becoming a pest as they out compete other organisms.

You can, to a great extent, prevent pest dinos by using natural, live rock and sand, and making sure nutrients are adequate to support these benign colonizers.

Once you already have dinos, then ensuring these other colonizers have adequate N and P appears to be a useful step.

Trace elements also likely play a role in determining which organisms thrive, and dinos can seem to run out of at least one critical element (don't know which one), which is likely why water changes seem to sometimes make dinos thrive even better, and rarely seems to be a useful treatment.

 

[kierstin1993]

Couple of things.

• OP confirmed he/she/it had dinos.
• Agree that low nutrients do not directly cause dinos...but they do provide an environment that makes it easier for the dinos to outcompete the good bacteria. As such, people make the simplifying statement that low nutrients cause dinos to save typing. Dinos are a scourge and depending on the type has different triggers and treatment methods...but nothing about low nutrients 'causing' dinos is inaccurate, especially given the long anecdotal evidence and experience by people in this forum who have lived through it.
• My biggest issue with your comment is about the vibrant. That was what my comment was about. Although it will kill your GHA, it will also kill other stuff in the tank and most likely cause a nutrient spike as the GHA dies off. although OP claims he/she/it has a large output mechanism, part of that mechanism is the excess GHA which is about to be removed from the system. Vibrant is really going to be a problem if just suggesting that a newbie use it. yes..vibrant has its place with people who know what to do with it...but for someone suffering from a GHA problem that is lacking the basic understanding of water chemistry should stay away.

oh ok, I didn’t read that it was confirmed under a microscope (usually how it’s confirmed), so I wasn’t sure. You’re right that it’s easier to just say low nutrients can cause it but I feel like it leads to a lot of misinformation for new hobbyists which is why I usually like to clarify that this is not always the case. I’ve personally had dinos and did not have my nutrient bottom out and it was due to believing they only appear when nutrients are low, that for the longest time, I thought it was cyano.

That’s why I didn’t recommend vibrant. I recommended using something like microbacter 7, But I said I’ve only heard this helps, as when I had an issue I used vibrant. I agree, vibrant is not for beginners. I’ve heard too many conflicting stories on the use of vibrant to be recommending it and maybe I should have added that to my post. I just didn’t want to recommend Microbacter without giving the information that I have not personally used it for algae control, so the OP should do some research before trying it because if it does work like vibrant (again, I’m not sure), you’d need to watch out for a nutrient spike, hence the increase water chance advice.