reef-pi almost cooks my tank

[JohnMzreef]

I came home tonight and was cleaning the glass on my big tank and noticed the glass felt a little warm... so I check my reef-pi and on the "Temperature" page I get a growl in the upper right corner:
{"error":"open /sys/bus/w1/devices/28-03129779e281/w1_slave: no such file or directory"} | HTTP 404
So with a sinking feeling I then check the dashboard - yup the heater is ON.
Dashing back downstairs I pull out my reference thermometer and temp the tank: 83 degrees. Scanning my livestock.. most things look ok. A hammer coral looks stressed. I guess I will find out the real toll over the next few days, right? (heater is now unplugged)

Can it be that the reef-pi temperature control could fail WITH THE HEATER ON? My reef-pi is only a few weeks old.. I must be missing something.. Someone set me straight.

 

[Ranjib]

We are very sorry to hear about your trouble. reef-pi can fail with the heater on. Since reef-pi is only the software and the hardware part varies build to build, its definitely possible to fail with heater ON. I think the risk remained same even if reef-pi temperature control fails with the heater off (low temperature). Does your heater have any internal temperature control as well? I tend to use heater with slightly high temperature settings (80) while reef-pi externally controls temperature at 78 (+/- 0.25).

83 degree should not be very bad. Your corals should recover. I have had this happened to me couple of times, due to ambient temperature spike (last summar).
I'll think through and see if I can write a feature to make this configurable (i.e. user can decide to turn heater on or off in case of temperature sensor failure)

 

[robbyg]

With any controller you should always have a secondary temperature controller in serial with the power bar. This is especially true for Chillers and Heaters.

 

[JohnMzreef]

I think the risk remained same even if reef-pi temperature control fails with the heater off

I think most people would disagree with your statement.
I would much rather my tank suffer a cold swing than a hot swing.
Seems reef-pi is still rough around the edges.. Please do fix this.

 

[Trickman2]

I think most people would disagree with your statement.
I would much rather my tank suffer a cold swing than a hot swing.
Seems reef-pi is still rough around the edges.. Please do fix this.

Not to be mean but it is a mistake to think that Reef-pi should be the primary solution for Temperature control. It is best used as a monitoring device for something that critical. You should go to youtube and look up Bulk Reef supply BRS investigates videos. Good source of information. Redundancy with Critical components is the name of the game. The temperature wasn't that bad...Everything will be fine but don't blame Reef-pi. You should always use the temp control on your heater also and probably a secondary heater controller. Reef-pi, Apex, any controller will have glitches and issues. This is no different and is experimental free code. Be Smart and learn a lesson here...Make note of the glitch and pass it on. Now...I want you to go watch some videos. Then go to the mirror and say that was dumb of me. Learn the lesson of redundancy and having multiple fail-safes. Good luck and Happy reefing. Very glad your mistake didn't cost you everything.

 

[mrlavalamp]

standalone or secondary monitors to verify and add security will always be a far more practicable solution than expecting any device to operate perfectly.

This ESPECIALLY true when working with something like reefpi where it is an ongoing project with updates/changes and MANY variables in the builds.

 

[lilgrounchuck]

83 isn't anything to freak out about unless you have some sort of cool water livestock in there. Heck, the first 8-10' of depth on the majority of dives I've been on in places the stuff in our tanks come from generally sits somewhere between 74-85.

 

[JohnMzreef]

Not to be mean

not mean but definitely condescending...
Look, when you program a computer you can make it do what you want. Ask 100 people whether the system should fail with the heater on or off - all 100 will say "off". That's all this is about. I have been polite. You are not.

 

[JohnMzreef]

I must be missing something.. Someone set me straight.

Well, I was expecting a reply such as "did you know you could configure that on such and such page of the gui?" or "did you remember to solder such and such component?". Instead the trolls came out of their caves...
I am sure Mr. Ranjib is a thick-skinned individual who wants his software to be the best it can be. And no one is complaining about the cost...
So if wise remarks are done with, this is a serious flaw that people should be aware of and I hope "default" settings will be a future feature. (see Digital Aquatics Reefkeeper)

 

[Ranjib]

Enable alerting, with that you should get notified when temperature sensor fails.

 

[lilgrounchuck]

Enable alerting, with that you should get notified when temperature sensor fails.

This. I was messing with my tank the other night and had all the probes out for just 10 min and reef pi shot me a bunch of emails that temp fell out of my set range. If you couple that with remote access you could also log in and disable a failing component.
What kind of power control do you have? Did you build your own or use an adj strip? My understanding of the adj strips is that when a relay fails on those it fails closed. If that’s the case it’s not an issue with reef pi, but with the adj strip and could mitigated by replacing the relays for things you don’t want to stick on with ones that fail open.

 

[Matevz Savarin]

I dont get it, all heaters have thermostates build in, so if relay fails, heaters thermostate turns off.. but if relay never turns on, then there is a problem, water gets to cold, so you must monitor this and get 2nd heater for backup. Just set it on lower temp and thats backup in case of failure of relay. Just my 2 cents.

 

[lilgrounchuck]

I dont get it, all heaters have thermostates build in, so if relay fails, heaters thermostate turns off.. but if relay never turns on, then there is a problem, water gets to cold, so you must monitor this and get 2nd heater for backup. Just set it on lower temp and thats backup in case of failure of relay. Just my 2 cents.

Some folks with adjustable heaters crank them up and let the controller handle the on/of with the relay. Problem is relays are mechanical and and only have x amount of on/cycles in them before they wear down and fail. If you’ve got a relay being used to control a heater with a 1+/- degree swing it’s going to be switching on and off like crazy. Most aren’t designed for that and will fail rather quickly. If it fails with the circuit closed and the temp setting on the heater was cranked way up the tank could get cooked. It could also happen with a temp probe failure, but with probes being a few bucks for five to ten of them, probe failure can be easily mitigated by running several. If either goes out of tolerance you have it cut the heater off.

 

[Matevz Savarin]

So its theirs fault, they dissable main fuse, and then its reef pis fault

 

[Ranjib]

I dont get it, all heaters have thermostates build in, so if relay fails, heaters thermostate turns off.. but if relay never turns on, then there is a problem, water gets to cold, so you must monitor this and get 2nd heater for backup. Just set it on lower temp and thats backup in case of failure of relay. Just my 2 cents.

Exactly.. which is why i was asking for some details to understand whats going. Its definitely a nice thing to have, to be able to declare what to do in case of failure. but without details its hard to decipher whats going on. I would prefer to keep the heater on if sensor fails

 

[lmm1967]

NONE of my heaters have builtin thermostats FYI.

I do use a double layer on my temp controller though - either reef-pi or GHL - but with an inkbird in the mix as well.

@JohnMzreef. - I agree with the others recommending getting alerts set up, although that is still not enough (what if an outbound email fails?).

I would also add in some other type of temperature control just in case.

I do think. your livestock will be fine - I've had tanks go up to 83 on several occasions and have never lost anything due to that temp.

 

[Bigtrout]

REDUNDANCY with heaters and chillers is the name of the game, whether you use reef--pi, an inkbird or other temperature controller! The problem is most aquarium heaters AND temperature controls are not as robust as an industrial type relay or temp control. To keep costs down the relays are NOT in any way equivalent to an industrial relay which is a more robust solution but can still fail. But who wants to shell out a couple hundred for an industrial temperature controller?

In my tank with reef pi, I have the relay wired Normally Closed, the heater itself set to 78 degrees and reef pi set to turn the heater off at 79 degrees. I have a second backup heater set the same way on a seperate reef pi temp sensor and relay. This setup gives me the following failsafes:

1. Reef pi goes haywire or one or both temp sensors fails, relays are closed and heaters work as normal on their own t-stats.
2. A Heater sticks ON like they often do...water gets to 79 and reef-pi shuts the heaters off.
3. One heater sticks OFF...backup heater can keep tank at temp.
4. Both heaters stick off...temp drops and reef-pi emails an alert! I put in a spare heater.

 

[JohnMzreef]

I would prefer to keep the heater on if sensor fails

do you feel the same way about your ato pump? (just makes no sense)

 

[Ranjib]

do you feel the same way about your ato pump? (just makes no sense)

I understand if it does not make sense to you. Folks have different preferences. As I mentioned , I used preset heater and will always prefer fail on.
Ato control is different and employs a lock out value , when breached (max ato pump usage ) it will disable the ato and send an alert. Also note, ato sensor failure is not same as temperature sensor, since ato sensor does not involve any such circuitry , they rarely fail by electronics issue, they fail mostly by jam or optical sensor simply not triggering. Which is why we have the lock up value. Heaters on the other hand are almost always on , and switching off heater will have an immediate effect on the tank compared to ato which can stay disable even for a whole day (for me ) without issue.

 

[JohnMzreef]

As I mentioned , I used preset heater and will always prefer fail on.

hmm ok, I see how that might make sense for an ebo jager type heater although I think you have more time to intervene with a tank that is getting cold vs getting hot. I once set a guppy in a small bowl of water in an open windowsill and forgot about it. When I remembered it the bowl was super cold but I just let it slowly warm and it was fine....
But as I alluded to earlier, why not just make a "default" setting for each "equipment"? Some of us might be using a heater such as the Finnex titanium. Now, I assume that because reef-pi has a setting called "hysteresis" that it is meant to control a heater such as this. This kind of setup you would want to fail "off". (Yes, I need to setup redundancy and an alert, but that does not change the fact.)
I only know the java language or I would be glad to contribute, hope you will find the time. Thank you.