Refugium hinders coral growth?

[Nor'easter Reefer]

Recently listened to a podcast, i THINK it was an episode of rappin with reefbum and I THINK it was Dong that mentioned macroalgaes release a hormone or chemical that hinders coral growth. I had never heard of this before, which surprises me as if this is true I figured i wouldn't have just learned it! Here i was prepping to add a refugium to my tank! Anyone have any insight on this?

 

[ChiCity]

ridiculous

must be caluerpa or something…
which is a macro i would never add

this macro will never affect your reef negatively

 

[Garf]

ridiculous

Well, theres plenty of data out there which suggests the impact of algae exudates are real. This info is not really new, just ignored.

 

[ChiCity]

interesting…
perhaps running carbon periodically offsets this?

 

[Nor'easter Reefer]

interesting…
perhaps running carbon periodically offsets this?

Or heavy water changes? I geuss the question is whether the risk outweighs the reward. If it's something people have known, but ignore, it must not ve something terrible impactful or refugiums/chaeto reactors/turf scrubber would have phased out. Assumedly.

 

[cilyjr]

The assertion is that the algae is taking up vital nutrients faster than Coral can uptake.
Dong did not say you should or should not use macro algae in your tank. He was just saying the above.
And his point was why consistently add nutrients that cost feeding could potentially provide all that's needed if there was less competition for those nutrients.

 

[Nor'easter Reefer]

The assertion is that the algae is taking up vital nutrients faster than Coral can uptake.
Dong did not say you should or should not use macro algae in your tank. He was just saying the above.
And his point was why consistently add nutrients that cost feeding could potentially provide all that's needed if there was less competition for those nutrients.

He also said "your refugium is not your friend" and that he hasn't had kne for years. I found the episode and the transcript on spotify(the transcript is spotty but you can get the general idea)

 

[Pistondog]

Theory is that algaes promote docs (dissolved organic compounds) that foster bacteria that overwhelm the coral's biome.
https://reefbuilders.com/2024/06/21...hy-reef-tank-heres-a-new-method-to-manage-it/

 

[areefer01]

He also said "your refugium is not your friend" and that he hasn't had kne for years. I found the episode and the transcript on spotify(the transcript is spotty but you can get the general idea)

Maybe they forgot to add "in their opinion"? Or maybe the dialog should have been around what is a refugium to you (guest, 2nd party in the content) and how is it installed, implemented. It really comes down to the hobbyist, use case, and how they implement it.

• Is it part of the sump
• Is it separate
• Is it used as a "refuge", safe place for organisms free of predation
• Is it setup such that there is a path from refuge to display for pods to feed display mandarin (example)
• Is it used for filtration or export of nutrients
• Is it used to grow macro algae for primary display food
• Is it used for observation of new fish, corals
• Is it used for time out
• Is it used for treatment if it can be isolated
• Is it started with any or several of the above but later ignored for various reasons and now a junk drawer of sorts

 

[twentyleagues]

Theory is that algaes promote docs (dissolved organic compounds) that foster bacteria that overwhelm the coral's biome.
https://reefbuilders.com/2024/06/21...hy-reef-tank-heres-a-new-method-to-manage-it/

Was just typing all this out lol. Work really cuts into my hobby time. lol
Yes algaes create DOC and DOC can be detrimental to coral growth. A lot of cryptic sponges use DOC and excrete DIC which coral use. This is some of the "new" filtration science that has been circulated recently. In the past I had a very large system that had a large fuge a lot of macros in it mostly caulerpas, never seemed to inhibit coral growth for me. I also had a 100g stock tank full of rock and a ton of sponges growing in it and another 100g stock tank half full of rock and eggcrate for frags again a lot of sponge growing in the rock. Maybe I was doing what new idea is before I even knew what it was. My 180 will have a fuge and a cryptic zone hoping to achieve this again.

 

[Lavey29]

I always viewed my fuge as a natural form of filtration. There are so many variables that can affect coral growth, I'm not sure how it can be definitively proven that macro algae is the primary factor in a tank. Its like putting leather corals in the tank which give off turpenes. Some will say they are bad especially for SPS corals while others will have giant toadstools next to their stick colonies. I have huge leather corals and can't say I've noticed any impact on other corals. My fuge has been running for 4 years with the same piece of chaeto I originally started with.

 

[ChiCity]

Maybe they forgot to add "in their opinion"? Or maybe the dialog should have been around what is a refugium to you (guest, 2nd party in the content) and how is it installed, implemented. It really comes down to the hobbyist, use case, and how they implement it.

• Is it part of the sump
• Is it separate
• Is it used as a "refuge", safe place for organisms free of predation
• Is it setup such that there is a path from refuge to display for pods to feed display mandarin (example)
• Is it used for filtration or export of nutrients
• Is it used to grow macro algae for primary display food
• Is it used for observation of new fish, corals
• Is it used for time out
• Is it used for treatment if it can be isolated
• Is it started with any or several of the above but later ignored for various reasons and now a junk drawer of sorts

this

i do not think either of my dragonets would survive without a fuge that’s culturing and teaming with pods…
crazy that people will buy pods to feed their mandys instead of just running a proper fuge with cryptic zones…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I saw that podcast after a previous thread about it. There’s no perfect way to export nutrients, if needed. Lots of ways work and folks can pick at the pros and cons of each, but that said, I have a refugium in my new tank.

 

[carri10]

Was just typing all this out lol. Work really cuts into my hobby time. lol
Yes algaes create DOC and DOC can be detrimental to coral growth. A lot of cryptic sponges use DOC and excrete DIC which coral use. This is some of the "new" filtration science that has been circulated recently. In the past I had a very large system that had a large fuge a lot of macros in it mostly caulerpas, never seemed to inhibit coral growth for me. I also had a 100g stock tank full of rock and a ton of sponges growing in it and another 100g stock tank half full of rock and eggcrate for frags again a lot of sponge growing in the rock. Maybe I was doing what new idea is before I even knew what it was. My 180 will have a fuge and a cryptic zone hoping to achieve this again.

I think this cycle is key.
From my reading this cycle is one that is being understood more and more. The algae ‘feeds’ the sponge. The sponge ‘feeds’ the corals.
Of course there are many others ways to do this feeding and, most importantly, sensitivity analysis to see how relevant the algae DOC is in our reef tanks hasn’t been done to my knowledge. So we don’t know for sure.

One of the main problems of this hobby, to be honest. Plenty of scientific proof with precious little understand img if it is relevant in our (diverse) tanks.

For the record, I have a refugee with chaeto that seems to grow hair algae much better! Followed by a cryptic sponge zone.

 

[Garf]

Watch the last 10 mins, it's real;

 

[areefer01]

Watch the last 10 mins, it's real;

Context?

Edit: I know you said last 10 minutes but 2 hours? Really?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m surprised with at least one thing I heard Salem claim that is misleading (e.g., at about 2:01:30 he says GAC doesn’t impact trace elements as much as organics because of the pore size.) Pore size is not the explanation, and would work in the opposite way since organics are larger than trace elements.

But that said, I do agree that exporting organics by water change, skimming, GAC, and other organic binders can be very useful and might possibly impact disease as he suggests.

Folks also should realize that algae are not the only and maybe not even the primary source of doc in some reef tanks. I’ve not seen anyone actually quantify typical reef tank sources, although some folks may have.

 

[Garf]

Context?

Edit: I know you said last 10 minutes but 2 hours? Really?

Yes, the vast majority is daftness. The last few minutes sums up my 2 years of googling and running algae scrubbers some12 or 13 years ago. I will not intentionally grow algae in my tank.
Pic below is 240v on lights held in place with dodgy springs, lol.

 

[areefer01]

Yes, the vast majority is daftness. The last few minutes sums up my 2 years of googling and running algae scrubbers some12 or 13 years ago. I will not intentionally grow algae in my tank.
Pic below is 240v on lights held in place with dodgy springs, lol.

Daftness is fine just not sure I could take 2 hours of it :) I don't think that content is made for me.

That is heavy duty. Me personally I use my refugium for refuge, isolation if needed, and grow macro algae. Not to export nutrients. It may export a little but I am more interested in growing it for food for my Gold Lined Rabbitfish and Scopas tang. I recently added a Blue tang so will be interesting to see if it will get in on the action once it grows up more. It is super tiny now.

My Copperband and Milletseed Butterflies rush to it for worms and aiptasia. I'll grab out a handful and it doesn't last too long. Other fish eat it like spaghetti noodles.

 

[Nor'easter Reefer]

I saw that podcast after a previous thread about it. There’s no perfect way to export nutrients, if needed. Lots of ways work and folks can pick at the pros and cons of each, but that said, I have a refugium in my new tank.

I'll have to meander over to your build thread and see what you got going on. As im trying to figure out how I want to move forward with my system right now and could use some inspiration.

As far as podcasts go, I just started listening to some recently. There's a lot of people with a log of opinions that they think are facts lol that said, I tend to take things with a grain of salt for the most part