Refugium stocking

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

@Reef Nutrition This is directed specifically toward you, but I am open for all opinions.

I want to have as much biodiversity in my 120g system as possible. I seem to have established a nice Tisbe pod population in my DT. I have a fairly large refugium in my sump with red ogo algae and chaeto along with some rock rubble. Unlike my DT, I almost never see any pods in my refugium.

I consider copepods to be an essential part of my CuC and the nutritional health of my fish. I'm looking for recommendations on what I should seed my refugium with to try and improve the biodiversity in my system. Any advice on specific products and their usage would be greatly appreciated.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

Brew12 said:
Unlike my DT, I almost never see any pods in my refugium.

I consider copepods to be an essential part of my CuC and the nutritional health of my fish. I'm looking for recommendations on what I should seed my refugium with to try and improve the biodiversity in my system.

Detritus – and lots of it.

I keep a fairly big powerhead running in my open-format sump so almost zero detritus collects down there – goes back to the display to feed corals/copepods, etc. (There are no apparent deposits of detritus anywhere, FYI. Used to be some in the sump before the powerhead.)

In case it's interesting or useful to know, I've "translocated diversity" from several foreign tanks via detritus over the years.

The fish store's rock tub was the absolute best for this.

It hadn't been thoroughly cleaned out in like ten years...maybe more. I even got some awesome tube worms out of that batch, though I didn't feed the system enough back then to keep them alive for more than a year or two...

Last, if your refugium is too remote from the tank, it might always tend to be short on detritus so pods might not be what's best-suited for the space. Maybe it needs to focus on dissolved nutrients vs particulates in that case? Just one idea.

Valkyrie · Mar 17, 2017

I'm thinking about using a 5g I have as a refugium for my 29g so I'm going to tag along.

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

mcarroll said:
Detritus – and lots of it.

I keep a fairly big powerhead running in my open-format sump so almost zero detritus collects down there – goes back to the display to feed corals/copepods, etc. (There are no apparent deposits of detritus anywhere, FYI. Used to be some in the sump before the powerhead.)

In case it's interesting or useful to know, I've "translocated diversity" from several foreign tanks via detritus over the years.

The fish store's rock tub was the absolute best for this.

It hadn't been thoroughly cleaned out in like ten years...maybe more. I even got some awesome tube worms out of that batch, though I didn't feed the system enough back then to keep them alive for more than a year or two...

Last, if your refugium is too remote from the tank, it might always tend to be short on detritus so pods might not be what's best-suited for the space. Maybe it needs to focus on dissolved nutrients vs particulates in that case? Just one idea.

I actually collect quite a bit of detritus in my refugium. Or maybe more accurately I accumulate debris. You have me wondering if it isn't actually true detritus and might not contribute enough nutrition to support pods.

I find it really odd that my pods do much better in my DT than my refugium. I don't have any significant pod predators in my DT so they aren't under too much pressure but I've always expected my refugium to do better.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

Differences in flow would be my guess....differences in available cover would be the other. Both.

In a higher flow tank with lots of cover zones I bet they "herd" so they're easy to notice and "appear numerous". In a lower-flow tank or one with fewer cover zones they may simply remain more dispersed or fewer in number.

I've never purposefully tried to grow pods....interesting tangent. I like it!

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

Do you have an auto-feeder on your tank yet?

Do you tend to have much dissolved nutrients in your water tests?

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

mcarroll said:
Do you have an auto-feeder on your tank yet?

Do you tend to have much dissolved nutrients in your water tests?

I do run an auto feeder. Dried nori in the morning, 2 pellet auto feeds during the day. LRS at night. PO4 around o.o4 and NO3 around 30ppm.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

I dunno how closely you're controlling PO4, but that's close enough to zero to make me nervous. I'd ease back on exports or increase the auto-feeder (or something else).

Toxic algae can result from low PO4 as they switch into competition mode and that will definitely suppress predator populations.....i.e. pods.

(That's the main point of the toxic reaction as I understand it so far.)

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

mcarroll said:
I dunno how closely you're controlling PO4, but that's close enough to zero to make me nervous. I'd ease back on exports or increase the auto-feeder (or something else).

Toxic algae can result from low PO4 as they switch into competition mode and that will definitely suppress predator populations.....i.e. pods.

(That's the main point of the toxic reaction as I understand it so far.)

I learned the low PO4 issue the hard way. GFO was not my friend. I only run a skimmer (curve 7) and a relatively small amount of Chaeto.

Do you think I would be better off increasing my auto-feeder or increasing the amount of LRS I feed at night?

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

Whatever works....I like the auto-feeder cause it's easy to make consistent adjustments. Sometimes it can be hard to be either precise OR consistent with frozen feedings. The frozen is probably better for the fish though! Seperate issue, but maybe a good way to decide.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

Is your NO3 stable that high? Or is that a weird number?

Weird that denitrification isn't cutting that down faster than the PO4 is being used up in the system. Instead you're upside down. Usually PO4-use is relatively much slower. Especially if skimming is all you're doing against PO4.

Hm. Any theories?

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

mcarroll said:
Whatever works....I like the auto-feeder cause it's easy to make consistent adjustments. Sometimes it can be hard to be either precise OR consistent with frozen feedings. The frozen is probably better for the fish though! Seperate issue, but maybe a good way to decide.

I wish I had a way to determine which one had a better PO4 to NO3 ratio.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

(Note I wouldn't worry about the NO3 number....just a curious circumstance with the ultra-low PO4.)

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

mcarroll said:
Is your NO3 stable that high? Or is that a weird number?

Weird that denitrification isn't cutting that down faster than the PO4 is being used up in the system. Instead you're upside down. Usually PO4-use is relatively much slower. Especially if skimming is all you're doing against PO4.

Hm. Any theories?

Poor husbandry.

I made some bad decisions and drove both my NO3 and PO4 down to undetectable. Killed my Chaeto and most of my pods. Realized that low nutrients were a very very bad idea. My PO4 became detectible quickly but my NO3 lagged which led to Cyano. Dosed stump remover to raise NO3. Found a dose rate that kept me at 5ppm. That worked for a week or so. In a 2 day period my NO3 shot up from 5ppm to 90ppm. Stopped dosing and I have been lowering for the last month.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

I don't think it varies tremendously....oils and fats are mostly what's missing from dry food.

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

I should add that I added more Chaeto to my fuge when things were more stable. The pod population rebounded in my DT but I never see signs of them in my fuge.

mcarroll · Mar 17, 2017

Brew12 said:
Poor husbandry.

I made some bad decisions and drove both my NO3 and PO4 down to undetectable. Killed my Chaeto and most of my pods. Realized that low nutrients were a very very bad idea. My PO4 became detectible quickly but my NO3 lagged which led to Cyano. Dosed stump remover to raise NO3. Found a dose rate that kept me at 5ppm. That worked for a week or so. In a 2 day period my NO3 shot up from 5ppm to 90ppm. Stopped dosing and I have been lowering for the last month.

Right on.....I think we were on the KNO3 thread together around that time IIRC. Or maybe it was the Dino thread....or the cyano thread. LOL LOL LOL

My system is also on the upswing now – nasty algae have given way to more normal, less-nasty algae; corals once-again booming.

Which leads me back to your first post....I've considered getting a pod boost from @Reef Nutrition before. Definitely post results if you decide to do that!

Brew12 · Mar 17, 2017

mcarroll said:
Right on.....I think we were on the KNO3 thread together around that time IIRC. Or maybe it was the Dino thread....or the cyano thread. LOL LOL LOL

My system is also on the upswing now – nasty algae have given way to more normal, less-nasty algae; corals once-again booming.

Which leads me back to your first post....I've considered getting a pod boost from @Reef Nutrition before. Definitely post results if you decide to do that!

Will do!

saltyfilmfolks · Mar 17, 2017

Brew12 said:
The pod population rebounded in my DT but I never see signs of them in my fuge.

thats actually ok. Bug populations will ebb and flow with food AND time as the bugs gain dominance.

Brew12 said:
I should add that I added more Chaeto to my fuge when things were more stable.

Definitely. As much of a natural self sustaining system as one can. It makes it easier to feed the tank and not worry about nutrints. THATS the prob with chasing numbers. Feed the fish healthfully, and a treat for the coral and bugs. They and the cuc and Bugs generally will do the rest, the macros too. You can see when a zoa or chato needs to be fed so ya feed more that week. Dragon's tongue is even better for that. It feels different. The ebb and flow of the thank feedings and bugs is toatally normal. If you see your pods are low you may need to feed pode food etc and vice versa, too many bugs may be too much food.

The diversity question becomes are you doing if for a cool thing to do or increased live tank food or cuc for the sump. My first vote would be a bag of micro brittle stars, because that probably IMO the coolest, more chato, and amphipods, dump the big ones in the sump to start cleaning, thelly make it to the display eventually..
I generally rotate my pod purchases by species over the year if your just concerned with the pod side.

@mcarroll knows I prefer the funk in the sump not the DT.