Rock Switch

[Syntax1235]

I’ve been having some ongoing issues, one of which is elevated aluminum that I can’t seem to find the root cause. I have a suspicion that it is in the mortar that I used to construct my aqua scape. Some aluminum pieces may have gotten into the mortar I used due to me cutting aluminum square bar and constructing my aquascape in the same space.

I have been thinking of switching out 100% of my rock for tbsw rock. I wonder what effect it would have on the fish and corals? Could I get away with it? Shipping temps are good now and die off would be minimal since I plan on only using base rock.

So. Could this work and be done safely?

Thoughts @LiverockRocks

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Yes, and no. You should plan to have a way to cure the TBS rock if needed... there might be no need to, but it's probably best to put it in a separate container for a day and test the ammonia level in case of die off. Plus, you might want to observe the rock to remove any unwanted hitchhikers before it goes into your already established display.

But the TBS rock will have plenty of nitrifying bacteria so from that standpoint (once anything from potential die off is taken care of) it will sufficiently replace your old rock with no need to cycle.

 

[EricR]

I don't have an answer to your real question
...but I'm struggling a bit with the likelihood of aluminum getting into your mortar.
*will leave that alone since you know your practices better than I

Just curious, how elevated are your aluminum levels? Based on ICP, I assume?
I'm pretty sure there are ways to bind aluminum if the issue isn't that severe.
I think even Poly Filter might claim to do that.

Anyway,,, just thinking aloud.
Good luck!

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I've done something similar in the past. I cured my rocks in a seperate tank for several months, I even added a couple of damsels to really get the rocks/bacteria going. Then its a straight exchange, rock for rock.

The biggest problem is pulling the old rocks out of the sand and stirring up the sand. My fish were stunned when i did that, I guess it caused an ammonia spike, but it made netting the fish pretty easy, they didn't resist. And they were all fine in the new tank, no losses..

 

[KrisReef]

Yes, and no. You should plan to have a way to cure the TBS rock if needed... there might be no need to, but it's probably best to put it in a separate container for a day and test the ammonia level in case of die off. Plus, you might want to observe the rock to remove any unwanted hitchhikers before it goes into your already established display.

But the TBS rock will have plenty of nitrifying bacteria so from that standpoint (once anything from potential die off is taken care of) it will sufficiently replace your old rock with no need to cycle.

I asked a similar question about fresh rocks and the idea that the initial die off would threaten a tank would be best mitigated in a barrel until the rock stabilized after shipping stresses.

Barrel also allows for removal of some unwanted hitchhikers.

 

[brandon429]

we could swap out your whole aquascape and skip cycle the new in our tank transfer thread. want to run the steps here then we can link it over there when done?

starting point: where is your new live rock coming from, have a link?

your key details involve the sandbed too, if any, because that's where the waste upwells from when you begin lifting out the current structure. you need a full tank care plan to not crash it...it's not just about the rock switch part that's easy. we will engineer your new rock to be skip cycle ready based on it's origin coming up/to be clarified

your substrate needs cleaning as well, that's how you change displays out correctly without the nutrient upwell and advanced take aging when systemic detritus up under the former rock structure isn't cleaned out. your fish need to be removed from the tank if you want this done safely, so these are the steps to a rip clean and we have done that job hundreds of times so far on the board. its not safer to leave the fish in, and upwell waste from a sandbed anyway if there is one under the current rocks

post a tank pic

is this uncured ocean rock you're ordering> the best would be actually cured live rock, from a pet store, which is live rock with coralline all over it and well-cured from sitting in their holding vat a while. that's immediately skip cycle live rock right out of the gate.

people get high aluminum readings and tin readings all the time from that test, I don't believe this is your source of issues at all. I just like doing big filter changeups to hone the ability to do skip cycle jobs in reefing...this isn't going to impact your aluminum as the bet because lots of reefers test high for that in these types of mail in testing.

 

[Syntax1235]

Thank you for the replies. I should have stated that my tank is bb.

Base rock from tbsw would be my source…. Probably around 100lbs in a 150 gallon 5 foot tank would suffice.

Aluminum has varied throughout the past year, anywhere from 150ug/l to as low as 20ug/l after several large water changes. The concern is that the level seems to increase when I back off on water changes. My aluminum doubled in a month and was around 40ug/l last week.

My tank has been a roller coaster over the past year. I have a lunar wrasse that needs to go as well. Replacing the rock would give me the opportunity to catch and rehomebtge little bugger. I k is that it seems drastic for a fish removal, but it gives me one more reason.

 

[brandon429]

the way you skip cycle transfer that entire setup is to get the rocks and using a knife, scrape/detail/surgically pre-remove any attached items that reef tanks dont grow (sponges, algae clumps you don't want taking over, tunicates etc)

then put the rock into brute cans with clean saltwater, stack them in, and circulate the water for ten days doing water changes the whole time. don't add anything to the setup. in ten days or less that will cure down just fine then you can swap with it all at once as long as no waste clouding happens from removing stuff in the old tank + adding in the new scape. base rock isn't that hard to surgically clean ahead of time...we get it done in ten days because of that initial pre curing. it comes in with loads of bacteria, it's topical growths aren't all that important and they're what die during heavy cure runs using ocean rocks.

 

[brandon429]

you would need to re ramp the lighting back from low power to just under current power over ten days after setup. re acclimating the light power is a bleach preventative trick.

 

[Syntax1235]

you would need to re ramp the lighting back from low power to just under current power over ten days after setup. re acclimating the light power is a bleach preventative trick.

Thanks for the advice. Here’s some shots of the tank. It’s a mess, but most of the corals are growing and have nice color.

 

[brandon429]

What a fantastic job that will be. True reef tank surgery live time.

Preps-
Why change it? That's a pic of a maturing reef tank the corals aren't bad at all nothing can be blamed on high aluminum

There's tuning methods that would benefit that reef as-is. That being said, if you want to switch it we can that'll be sick tank surgery for example threads. It'll look brand new with the remaining corals cut out from current mounts and repositioned on live rock in the new setup

The whole thing done as a skip cycle substrate transfer. Sick job. We can do it

By focusing on feed quality in the new tank vs light intensity you can guide up the new system and focus on corals and control those side algae outbreaks better.

*being different with the new tank, for different results after the new investment: make the rocks accessible as an aquascsape for occasional removal for dental detailing, externally.

Don't make the system have to be fixed of algae by never removing the rocks and doing all algae control through water details... that's slow

The new way is occasionally lift out a rock with bad algae, use a knife to score off algae in detail, dot in peroxide. Rinse off, put back the clean reef tooth.

Do that until you don't have to, the whole thing will be covered in coralline and coral flesh and those two repel algae so you aren't cleaning so much

Your current system would benefit from bluer less intense light I'm positive. That's the big contributor to green- tinted growths on surfaces in the pics

Done differently in the new arrangement should be light spectrum, bluer, and less overall white or none at all is an option too.

Focus on quality food spot feeding and water changes after the new assembly.


Hey have you thought of removing all sand and going bare
We can do neat things with those since they don't store up waste

we want to verify that your make water is pure ro di 0/0 tds for the new setup as well. if it is, then a low waste storage, high current, muted lighting, higher feed quality and export setup is bound to get different results. aluminum levels factored none in the design, we could do the same approach with your current rock. you'd rip clean it all once, we'd start clean.

in some ways your current rock is a benefit for your long haul reefing approach. if that rock has never been detailed externally as listed, that's fastastic control for years long self running. it just needed some occasional dentistry...so will your new rock which is why that was mentioned in core design...you'd be externally cleaning rocks from now on, for a while, so that nothing gets out of balance in the new display having done all this work.

we downplayed things that grow green plants in the new approach and we played up things that help corals grow faster, so their own mass becomes an algae excluder on the rocks. systems that are covered in coral flesh rarely have algae issues because algae doesn't attach to the bubble flesh of a plyrogyra, for example. coral flesh is powerfully algae-excluding for the zones they make up, we emphasize that in the final arrangement whether using your current rocks or new ones.

your current rocks did not import nor cure nor select for dinos, that's a big deal. your challenge is mainly light driven algae, easily tuned down.

switching rocks carries a small dinos risk and in my opinion that's the scourge of reefing, some strains not currently beatable. there are pros and cons with switching, aluminum levels factor 0% in my opinion in the choice to switch

a positive reason to switch it might be if you want a nice, clean aquascape to start from and don't want to rip clean all that rock

I rate your dinos risk low with that specific type of ocean rock because it was grown in such a diverse environment. that imported rock will have a much better coral food web that's for sure...a pro aspect of changing the scape for ocean rock, hand-cured. they bring in some algae that can take over tanks, the ocean is a really diverse serving plate for live rock that's why you hand cure with a knife, surgically, the lions share of topical growths from the rock that are likely to just slough off over time anyway. what you want to import is high surface area live rock with coralline plus the microbes that the oceans provide. knife detailing preserves these things by being precise in the scoring mode, like a reef dentist doing tooth cleaning surgery.

if you set in very clean rocks into a new glass tank you can add your water and animals not long after it all settles. when the new tank assembly is high current, and totally clean water, you can add the animals and the new scape system will skip cycle/carry all the current life instantly, total ammonia control vs any mini cycle. the new rock must be pre trimmed, cured ten days with strong circulation and a few big water changes, you don't have to run the holding containers full just keep the water they're in exchanged well for the ten days, after knife cleaning. that w get base rock ready fast, and controlled on time.

 

[Syntax1235]

@brandon429

Thanks for the comments. I have heard of the rip clean method and I’m up for giving it a shot so I don’t have to go through the expense of purchasing new rock.

I can remove the rock, but it is in rather large sections. I’m not opposed to doing it though.

The tank is bare bottom. Most of the rock is dry rock that is covered with coralline, unfortunately it is now covered with cyano and other garbage. A portion of the rock I ordered from tbsw.

The tank is about 13 months old. Algae was not an issue until I removed sand from the sump, algae then migrated to the display and has been there ever since. I’m currently trying microbacter clean to take care of things. Light feeding is a challenge with a Copperband and the Anthias.

As for lighting. I’m currently using three reefbrite mh/xho fixtures with two 24k bulbs on the sides on for 6 hours and a 10k in the center for about 2 hours. Xho’s are blue and are on for about 10 hours including a ramp up and down of 1 hour each.

Can you point me to a detailed thread for instructions?

 

[brandon429]

Do test rocks before the big job

To see how they do in the tank among the uncleaned rocks

what you're trying to do is manually clean off the algae vs try and kill it in the tank to rot, become detritus and fuel some other invasion. Lift out the rock one at a time and use a knife tip to scrape clean, dislodging all bad attachments. Rinse off in saltwater. You can put peroxide on the former attachment sites after cleaning to zap unseen anchor cells that regrow

Rinse off and set the rock back clean, scrape the tank walls and siphon out that mass etc. Do a few test rocks to see how they look. It's not dipping them in anything it's dental detailing each rock outside the tank sitting on the counter so you can be exacting.

Then in the clean condition you lower lighting, increase manual controls of algae and focus on good feeding and preemptive water changes to stop regrowth. If your algae was particularly bad we could dose fluconazole to stop growback but that's after all other methods were in place... all rocks clean and lighting fixed.

 

[brandon429]

Here are seven good rip cleans for patterning

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Syntax1235]

Here are seven good rip cleans for patterning

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

14k mh, not 24k. I’ll check out the links. Thank you.

 

[Syntax1235]

Update:

Over the period of two weeks I switched out all of my rock and replaced it with tbsw rock. I did not experience any issues and the algae has all but disappeared. I also added a bunch of snails.

I’m still dealing with some odd acro tissue recession but I’m hopeful things will stabilize after a few months with the new rock.