Royal Gramma dying

[CloudReefer]

Hi guys, I picked up a Royal Gramma from the LFS last week and it seems to be dying. When we got it, it was swimming kind of funny, but had always read that they tend to do that and wasn't too concerned as otherwise it was eating and exploring the tank. Two days ago it disappeared, but came out to take a nibble of food the next morning so I didn't think anything of it. It didn't come out that night, this morning or this evening for food. I figured he was just hiding but I just walked by my tank after lights out and I found him floating in the current, wriggling a bit but otherwise fairly stiff. He's breathing slowly but very labored. I don't see any signs of disease. Coloration is excellent, eyes are clear, no marks or pests or anything I can see.

I have a firefish, a blenny, a bunch of snails, hermits, shrimp, a SPS and some LPS that are all doing fine. Water parameters are all good.

Is there anything I can do to help him?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi guys, I picked up a Royal Gramma from the LFS last week and it seems to be dying. When we got it, it was swimming kind of funny, but had always read that they tend to do that and wasn't too concerned as otherwise it was eating and exploring the tank. Two days ago it disappeared, but came out to take a nibble of food the next morning so I didn't think anything of it. It didn't come out that night, this morning or this evening for food. I figured he was just hiding but I just walked by my tank after lights out and I found him floating in the current, wriggling a bit but otherwise fairly stiff as if all the muscles on one side of his body had contracted. He's breathing slowly. I don't see any signs of disease. Coloration is excellent, eyes are clear, no marks or pests or anything I can see.

I have a firefish, a blenny, a bunch of snails, hermits, shrimp, a SPS and some LPS that are all doing fine. Water parameters are all good.

Is there anything I can do to help him?

Please post a video of at least 25 seconds under white lighting

 

[CloudReefer]

Please post a video of at least 25 seconds under white lighting

I did but it doesn't seem to be working. Let me try uploading to youtube.

 

[CloudReefer]

Please post a video of at least 25 seconds under white lighting

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

There you go, not quite 25 seconds though.

 

[jabberwock]

It is so difficult to be a fish vet. I would lean to the side of doing less, but you never know.

 

[CloudReefer]

It is so difficult to be a fish vet. I would lean to the side of doing less, but you never know.

Yeah I haven't taken any steps yet. I was hoping to get some advice but in my experience a fish in this condition is done. I wonder if I misread the funny swimming when we got him, and it was in fact a problem with the swim bladder.

 

[bluemon]

Tank size? And what do you mean by normal parameters? It’d be nice to see some numbers

 

[vetteguy53081]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

There you go, not quite 25 seconds though.

The fish looks a little thin and is as a few have popped up lately, a fish that is in distress and moribund and will likely not be able to eat or swim normal from this point forward. There is no additive or anything I can recommend to perk it up and adding an airstone is the only fighting chance offered but likely wont do much either
Fish in this condition rarely survive, even if it can be determined what is wrong....sorry to say. It does seem thin to me, and their feeding history kind points towards that.

 

[CloudReefer]

Tank size? And what do you mean by normal parameters? It’d be nice to see some numbers

Sure and thanks

75g display
20g sump

SG 1.025
pH 8.25
Alk 7.5
Nitrate 0 (I have some GHA, this readings is probably not accurate)
Phosphate 0 (I have some GHA, this readings is probably not accurate)
temp 77F

I run carbon and a reef octopus essence skimmer and some chaeto in a fuge.

 

[CloudReefer]

The fish looks a little thin and is as a few have popped up lately, a fish that is in distress and moribund and will likely not be able to eat or swim normal from this point forward. There is no additive or anything I can recommend to perk it up and adding an airstone is the only fighting chance offered but likely wont do much either
Fish in this condition rarely survive, even if it can be determined what is wrong....sorry to say. It does seem thin to me, and their feeding history kind points towards that.

Do Royal Gramma have issues with frozen food? I didn't see it eat a lot of frozen, just a few small pieces here and there, but it was definitely pecking at the rocks and such, eating pods I suspect. I did research the fish but didn't see anything mentioning feeding issues.

Yeah, I thought it was likely not going to make it. I feel awful for him.

Based on the info here, do you think there is something I missed when evaluating the fish in the shop before I brought him home? I didn't notice it swimming funny until he was in my tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Do Royal Gramma have issues with frozen food? I didn't see it eat a lot of frozen, just a few small pieces here and there, but it was definitely pecking at the rocks and such, eating pods I suspect. I did research the fish but didn't see anything mentioning feeding issues.

Yeah, I thought it was likely not going to make it. I feel awful for him.

Based on the info here, do you think there is something I missed when evaluating the fish in the shop before I brought him home? I didn't notice it swimming funny until he was in my tank.

generally not but whats offered should be palatable such as LRS nano frenzy, mysis shrimp, tdo pellets, brine shrimp and small plankton as examples

 

[bluemon]

Do Royal Gramma have issues with frozen food? I didn't see it eat a lot of frozen, just a few small pieces here and there, but it was definitely pecking at the rocks and such, eating pods I suspect. I did research the fish but didn't see anything mentioning feeding issues.

Yeah, I thought it was likely not going to make it. I feel awful for him.

Based on the info here, do you think there is something I missed when evaluating the fish in the shop before I brought him home? I didn't notice it swimming funny until he was in my tank.

Swimming funny is a big red flag but now you know to look out for it.

other than obvious physical blemishes and signs of disease, I like to ask the lfs to feed it in front of me

 

[CloudReefer]

generally not but whats offered should be palatable such as LRS nano frenzy, mysis shrimp, tdo pellets, brine shrimp and small plankton as examples

That's basically what I feed.

Swimming funny is a big red flag but now you know to look out for it.

other than obvious physical blemishes and signs of disease, I like to ask the lfs to feed it in front of me

It wasn't swimming oddly in the shop. I wonder if he was injured either in my tank or in transit home.

 

[vetteguy53081]

That's basically what I feed.

It wasn't swimming oddly in the shop. I wonder if he was injured either in my tank or in transit home.

Or even when netted. Some LFS employees can get rough with a net

 

[CloudReefer]

Or even when netted. Some LFS employees can get rough with a net

Appreciate the responses everyone. I'll keep him safe until he either stops breathing or recovers.

 

[CloudReefer]

Well, that didn't take long. I hate that he seemed to be suffering.

He died with his mouth and gills wide open and his body bent into a "U". Does this give a clue to anything?

I looked into the gills with a magnifying glass and didn't see any sign of parasites.

 

[bluemon]

Well, that didn't take long. I hate that he seemed to be suffering.

He died with his mouth and gills wide open and his body bent into a "U". Does this give a clue to anything?

I looked into the gills with a magnifying glass and didn't see any sign of parasites.

Not a fish vet but make a seizure or general organ failure?

But you did the best you could. These things happen in this hobby, thanks for being with him till the end and giving it your best to seek treatment

 

[CloudReefer]

Not a fish vet but make a seizure or general organ failure?

But you did the best you could. These things happen in this hobby, thanks for being with him till the end and giving it your best to seek treatment

I don't know if fish can have seizures but for a bit when he was still wriggling a little that's what it looked like.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well, that didn't take long. I hate that he seemed to be suffering.

He died with his mouth and gills wide open and his body bent into a "U". Does this give a clue to anything?

I looked into the gills with a magnifying glass and didn't see any sign of parasites.

Sorry to see.

When fish die like that, with the mouth open, that says there was an oxygen issue. Not always oxygen in the water (your other animals in the tank doing well rules that out) but something with this fish itself. In the video, it was breathing very deeply and fast - signs of low oxygen in the fish. Royal Gramma are prone to gill flukes, so that could have been the issue. With gill flukes however, the onset is more gradual, and the fish turns pale and scratches on rocks and other surfaces a LOT. This fish has great color and you didn't report any flashing. That then points to something systemically wrong with the fish - an internal infection, but more likely, something to do with the way the fish was collected: most RG come from Haiti. That country is well know for having cheap fish that were collected with drugs. That in turn causes higher than expected mortality in the fish weeks after collection.

Here is a note that I wrote about fish from Haiti:


Haiti - Overharvesting of Condylactis anemones is suspected from this country, as well as some dubious transactions involving live rock and mushroom anemones. Transshipped Haitian fish (royal gramma, pygmy angelfish and jawfish) have flooded the US market with cheap, but weak fish for decades. It is not always possible to know which fish are collected in Florida and which were imported from Haiti and then resold as “Florida fish”. One key is the species involved; Pygmy Angelfish and Royal Gramma sold by Florida collectors are simply not collected there, as they are not found in that region. There is also some suspicion that collectors in this country use drugs to capture their fish (most likely quinaldine). One dealer in the United States was convicted of selling Ricordea sp. mushrooms that were reported to have been collected in Haiti, but were actually illegally harvested in Florida waters. He served jail time, but in 2022, he again began to try to market the same species to the public.

Jay

 

[CloudReefer]

Sorry to see.

When fish die like that, with the mouth open, that says there was an oxygen issue. Not always oxygen in the water (your other animals in the tank doing well rules that out) but something with this fish itself. In the video, it was breathing very deeply and fast - signs of low oxygen in the fish. Royal Gramma are prone to gill flukes, so that could have been the issue. With gill flukes however, the onset is more gradual, and the fish turns pale and scratches on rocks and other surfaces a LOT. This fish has great color and you didn't report any flashing. That then points to something systemically wrong with the fish - an internal infection, but more likely, something to do with the way the fish was collected: most RG come from Haiti. That country is well know for having cheap fish that were collected with drugs. That in turn causes higher than expected mortality in the fish weeks after collection.

Here is a note that I wrote about fish from Haiti:


Haiti - Overharvesting of Condylactis anemones is suspected from this country, as well as some dubious transactions involving live rock and mushroom anemones. Transshipped Haitian fish (royal gramma, pygmy angelfish and jawfish) have flooded the US market with cheap, but weak fish for decades. It is not always possible to know which fish are collected in Florida and which were imported from Haiti and then resold as “Florida fish”. One key is the species involved; Pygmy Angelfish and Royal Gramma sold by Florida collectors are simply not collected there, as they are not found in that region. There is also some suspicion that collectors in this country use drugs to capture their fish (most likely quinaldine). One dealer in the United States was convicted of selling Ricordea sp. mushrooms that were reported to have been collected in Haiti, but were actually illegally harvested in Florida waters. He served jail time, but in 2022, he again began to try to market the same species to the public.

Jay

Jay thank you for the helpful response and explanation. I'm so disappointed that my purchase of this fish is going to support unethical and unsustainable collection practices. I've always been iffy about buying wild caught fish and will probably only purchase aquacultured moving forward. I'm also going to discuss this with the shop I bought it from to see what their thoughts are. If they knowingly stocked a fish that was collected in such a way I may limit, or perhaps completely cease spending my money with them depending on how they respond.


Thank you again for sharing this information!