Royal Gramma Pale/White and Flashing

[astrofish]

Your tank looks super clean, with almost no algae of any kind, even after 3 months. I guess it's still pretty early to put fish that are disease prone. People say clownfish is tough but in my experience they aren't. They are only tough in mature tank environment, but they get ick very easily in newer tanks... If you want fish, stick to fish like gobby or bottom feeders. Very tough tho!

I went through this same "disease phase" when I first started my tank years ago. It felt like whatever fish I added would get ich or some other disease, or just die within a few weeks.

It finally stopped after I stopped adding new fish for a few months and just let the tank mature. I didn't reset the system or clean. From what I remember, it took at least 6–8 months before things really stabilized. Once the tank matured, I rarely had problems with ich or other diseases anymore, assuming the fish I added were healthy to begin with.

Unfortunately, clowns with brook are really difficult to save once it gets to the stage shown in your picture. If he's still actively eating, though, there's definitely still some hope with proper treatment and care.

Personally, I'd avoid copper with the small sized fish like clown. It's pretty harsh, especially when the fish is already weak. The royal gramma is pretty tough, so hopefully he'll pull through.

I'd move the sick fish into a separate treatment tank or bucket and keep the water extremely clean. Frequent water changes can help a lot with ick. Some shops also use tank-transfer-type (few water changes a day) methods for ich rather than immediately relying on harsher medications.

Most importantly, keep them eating. Give them nutritious food, keep them well fed, and try to keep stress as low as possible so their immune systems have the best chance of fighting it.

For now I would stop adding new fish. Just let your tank mature. To cycle your tank faster, I recommend you get live rock, bio media or established water from shops or natural sea water. It takes a lot of time to mature with death rock, brand new water, and sand.

Good luck! Hopefully they pull through.

I hadn’t planned on any more fish, I was just trying to get things stable with this stocking level. It’s only a 30 gallon.

Honestly, I thought I was taking it slow and steady. I added bottled bacteria and did a fishless cycle. I added TBS live rock and sand, microbacter 7, and PNS deep cycle. I kept the first fish in QT for 30 days observing it under bright light every day.

The lack of algae may be because I started off with my lighting at a very low percentage and have it set to ramp up over 40 days.

That's good! You were pretty thorough with the setup... as I can see. But judging from the pictures, I'd say the tank is probably still far from being fully matured, which could be contributing to the disease outbreaks.

I actually added fish much earlier than you did, with basically no cycling period, and had to learn my lesson the hard way

Initially, though I used established sand, live rock, water, and some filter media from my LFS, and surprisingly the tank did fine for the first few months. The problems really started when I upgraded to a bigger new tank and replaced a lot of that with new water and new filter media and sand. That's when diseases started getting out of hand. I suspect disease phase from newer tanks is mostly some kind of bacteria imbalance.

I'm not sure how effective all the bottled bacteria products really are compared to the real thing (that comes with natural cycling), but from my experience, one of the best ways to help a tank mature is to introduce established live rock, bio media, and some sand from a healthy, mature system. If I use any bacteria products, Seachem is pretty good.

Maybe ask your LFS if they can sell or give you some established bio media or live rock from one of their healthy systems. That might help speed things up!

 

[astrofish]

I did only keep the clownfish in a QT tank for a week. I was under the impression that it would be relatively safe since they were ordered directly from the breeder.

I'm sure your fish were healthy in their system. Bred clowns are usually pretty tough too.

Most fish probably carry ich or some kind of parasite, but in a mature system their immune system keeps it at bay. Even if ich shows up, it's usually gone within a few days if the fish is healthy.

In newer tanks, even healthy fish tend to get sick much easier, especially disease-prone fish like tangs and clowns. We don't really know why, but it's probably something to do with bacterial balance and overall tank maturity.

I stopped getting major ich outbreaks once my tank matured. Even if a fish gets a few spots now, it usually doesn't spread and disappears within a few days.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Looking back through my logs, I thought the royal gramma looked discolored on 09/12, but she was eating and behaving normally and to be honest it slipped my mind.

I noticed again on the 23rd two days before I posted here.

I didn’t see anything on the clowns until today.

They don’t look as bad in the video as they did in the earlier photo. I do think this is brooklynella. That can be tough to treat - formalin is the best thing to use, but is difficult to source and not really safe for use in homes. Your next best option would be, as mentioned, ruby reef rally pro.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

Looking back through my logs, I thought the royal gramma looked discolored on 09/12, but she was eating and behaving normally and to be honest it slipped my mind.

I noticed again on the 23rd two days before I posted here.

I didn’t see anything on the clowns until today.

They don’t look as bad in the video as they did in the earlier photo. I do think this is brooklynella. That can be tough to treat - formalin is the best thing to use, but is difficult to source and not really safe for use in homes. Your next best option would be, as mentioned, ruby reef rally pro.

I have ordered the reef rally pro, but it won’t come for two days. Is there anything I can do in the meantime?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have ordered the reef rally pro, but it won’t come for two days. Is there anything I can do in the meantime?

Not really - but did you start the prazi treatment?

A five minute freshwater dip can buy you some time, but it is a stressful process that tends to outweigh much of the benefit.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

I have ordered the reef rally pro, but it won’t come for two days. Is there anything I can do in the meantime?

Not really - but did you start the prazi treatment?

A five minute freshwater dip can buy you some time, but it is a stressful process that tends to outweigh much of the benefit.

Yes, I started the prazipro treatment yesterday.

I guess I’ll just hope for the best.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

I have ordered the reef rally pro, but it won’t come for two days. Is there anything I can do in the meantime?

One more question, once I receive the rally pro, do I medicate my display tank? Right now I only have one 10 gallon QT tank which won’t be big enough for all three fish. Worst case, I guess I can try to setup a third tank.

I appreciate all of your help.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

I have ordered the reef rally pro, but it won’t come for two days. Is there anything I can do in the meantime?

Not really - but did you start the prazi treatment?

A five minute freshwater dip can buy you some time, but it is a stressful process that tends to outweigh much of the benefit.

One more question, once I receive the rally pro, do I medicate my display tank? Right now I only have one 10 gallon QT tank which won’t be big enough for all three fish. Worst case, I guess I can try to setup a third tank.

I appreciate all of your help.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

One more question, once I receive the rally pro, do I medicate my display tank? Right now I only have one 10 gallon QT tank which won’t be big enough for all three fish. Worst case, I guess I can try to setup a third tank.

I appreciate all of your help.

You can dose your display, but it will discolor the water. You can also use it as a stronger daily dip while your dosing the main tank.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

Your tank looks super clean, with almost no algae of any kind, even after 3 months. I guess it's still pretty early to put fish that are disease prone. People say clownfish is tough but in my experience they aren't. They are only tough in mature tank environment, but they get ick very easily in newer tanks... If you want fish, stick to fish like gobby or bottom feeders. Very tough tho!

I went through this same "disease phase" when I first started my tank years ago. It felt like whatever fish I added would get ich or some other disease, or just die within a few weeks.

It finally stopped after I stopped adding new fish for a few months and just let the tank mature. I didn't reset the system or clean. From what I remember, it took at least 6–8 months before things really stabilized. Once the tank matured, I rarely had problems with ich or other diseases anymore, assuming the fish I added were healthy to begin with.

Unfortunately, clowns with brook are really difficult to save once it gets to the stage shown in your picture. If he's still actively eating, though, there's definitely still some hope with proper treatment and care.

Personally, I'd avoid copper with the small sized fish like clown. It's pretty harsh, especially when the fish is already weak. The royal gramma is pretty tough, so hopefully he'll pull through.

I'd move the sick fish into a separate treatment tank or bucket and keep the water extremely clean. Frequent water changes can help a lot with ick. Some shops also use tank-transfer-type (few water changes a day) methods for ich rather than immediately relying on harsher medications.

Most importantly, keep them eating. Give them nutritious food, keep them well fed, and try to keep stress as low as possible so their immune systems have the best chance of fighting it.

For now I would stop adding new fish. Just let your tank mature. To cycle your tank faster, I recommend you get live rock, bio media or established water from shops or natural sea water. It takes a lot of time to mature with death rock, brand new water, and sand.

Good luck! Hopefully they pull through.

I hadn’t planned on any more fish, I was just trying to get things stable with this stocking level. It’s only a 30 gallon.

Honestly, I thought I was taking it slow and steady. I added bottled bacteria and did a fishless cycle. I added TBS live rock and sand, microbacter 7, and PNS deep cycle. I kept the first fish in QT for 30 days observing it under bright light every day.

The lack of algae may be because I started off with my lighting at a very low percentage and have it set to ramp up over 40 days.

That's good! You were pretty thorough with the setup... as I can see. But judging from the pictures, I'd say the tank is probably still far from being fully matured, which could be contributing to the disease outbreaks.

I actually added fish much earlier than you did, with basically no cycling period, and had to learn my lesson the hard way

Initially, though I used established sand, live rock, water, and some filter media from my LFS, and surprisingly the tank did fine for the first few months. The problems really started when I upgraded to a bigger new tank and replaced a lot of that with new water and new filter media and sand. That's when diseases started getting out of hand. I suspect disease phase from newer tanks is mostly some kind of bacteria imbalance.

I'm not sure how effective all the bottled bacteria products really are compared to the real thing (that comes with natural cycling), but from my experience, one of the best ways to help a tank mature is to introduce established live rock, bio media, and some sand from a healthy, mature system. If I use any bacteria products, Seachem is pretty good.

Maybe ask your LFS if they can sell or give you some established bio media or live rock from one of their healthy systems. That might help speed things up!

To be clear, I added both live rock and live and from Tampa Bay Saltwater.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

You can dose your display, but it will discolor the water. You can also use it as a stronger daily dip while your dosing the main tank.

Unfortunately, things haven't gone well. I've lost the mocha clownfish and the other fish aren't well.

I dosed PraziPro in the display tank on September 26, October 1, and October 6. I did a large water change before each PraziPro dose. From September 29 through October 3, I also dosed Rally Pro in the display daily and gave both clowns daily 90-minute Rally baths. I could only catch the royal gramma for one of those baths.

Up until that point all of the fish had been mostly acting normal except for mostly staying towards the top of the tank. All three were still eating. I've been running two airstones the whole time to try to help them.

On October 6, the gramma was swimming sideways near the surface. I caught it and placed it in a specimen container. It looked gravely ill and was not moving and barely breathing. I was actually considering euthanasia via clove oil, but decided to try one more Rally bath. It perked up in a couple of minutes so I moved her to QT. I dosed Rally Pro and PraziPro in QT that day.

The clowns have still been in the DT the whole time. The mocha especially was spending all of her time in the return flow near one of the airstones. The mocha was also opening and closing it's mouth constantly. The other clownfish swam around the tank more normally. That was last night. I was hoping that they were just recovering. Both clowns still appeared to have the white dusting.

Today at noon I went down to feed the fish and the mocha was dead. She was wedged into a tiny gap in my rock work. I placed her body in a specimen container with fresh water in case I might see flukes, but I don't see anything.

I currently have the clownfish in the DT and I'm planning to move it to a second QT I'm setting up. The royal gramma is spending most of her time hiding in the sponge filter in the QT so it's hard to tell how she's doing but she swims out of the sponge filter if I raise it out of the tank. I plan to check again in a bit.

At this point, I'm feeling pretty guilty and I have no idea what to do next. I contacted a reef vet I found on Instagram, but I haven't heard back yet. I guess I'll plan to leave the DT fallow for 75 days, but I have no idea how to take care of the royal gramma and remaining clownfish.

Any advice is appreciated.

(I attached a rough timeline)

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Unfortunately, things haven't gone well. I've lost the mocha clownfish and the other fish aren't well.

I dosed PraziPro in the display tank on September 26, October 1, and October 6. I did a large water change before each PraziPro dose. From September 29 through October 3, I also dosed Rally Pro in the display daily and gave both clowns daily 90-minute Rally baths. I could only catch the royal gramma for one of those baths.

Up until that point all of the fish had been mostly acting normal except for mostly staying towards the top of the tank. All three were still eating. I've been running two airstones the whole time to try to help them.

On October 6, the gramma was swimming sideways near the surface. I caught it and placed it in a specimen container. It looked gravely ill and was not moving and barely breathing. I was actually considering euthanasia via clove oil, but decided to try one more Rally bath. It perked up in a couple of minutes so I moved her to QT. I dosed Rally Pro and PraziPro in QT that day.

The clowns have still been in the DT the whole time. The mocha especially was spending all of her time in the return flow near one of the airstones. The mocha was also opening and closing it's mouth constantly. The other clownfish swam around the tank more normally. That was last night. I was hoping that they were just recovering. Both clowns still appeared to have the white dusting.

Today at noon I went down to feed the fish and the mocha was dead. She was wedged into a tiny gap in my rock work. I placed her body in a specimen container with fresh water in case I might see flukes, but I don't see anything.

I currently have the clownfish in the DT and I'm planning to move it to a second QT I'm setting up. The royal gramma is spending most of her time hiding in the sponge filter in the QT so it's hard to tell how she's doing but she swims out of the sponge filter if I raise it out of the tank. I plan to check again in a bit.

At this point, I'm feeling pretty guilty and I have no idea what to do next. I contacted a reef vet I found on Instagram, but I haven't heard back yet. I guess I'll plan to leave the DT fallow for 75 days, but I have no idea how to take care of the royal gramma and remaining clownfish.

Any advice is appreciated.

(I attached a rough timeline)

Sorry to hear all that (ugh).

I went back and re-read the whole thread - I think you've ruled out flukes as the issue, since you ran enough prazi to at least kick the infection back (if not eliminated it outright).

The rule out diagnsoses here are that this is severe Brooklynella, that the Ruby Reef Rally Pro couldn't control (as I mentioned, formalin is MUCH better than RRRP, but difficult to acquire, and not safe to use in a home). The other possibility is that this is "stale" marine ich, where the early single white spots were missed, and once the infection got going, the symptoms were unclear, and we misidentified as Brooklynella. I don't think that this is velvet, since the fish have had symptoms for a longer time without dying, and velvet kills much faster.

In the end, I don't have much other advice for you, (Sorry!).

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

Sorry to hear all that (ugh).

I went back and re-read the whole thread - I think you've ruled out flukes as the issue, since you ran enough prazi to at least kick the infection back (if not eliminated it outright).

The rule out diagnsoses here are that this is severe Brooklynella, that the Ruby Reef Rally Pro couldn't control (as I mentioned, formalin is MUCH better than RRRP, but difficult to acquire, and not safe to use in a home). The other possibility is that this is "stale" marine ich, where the early single white spots were missed, and once the infection got going, the symptoms were unclear, and we misidentified as Brooklynella. I don't think that this is velvet, since the fish have had symptoms for a longer time without dying, and velvet kills much faster.

In the end, I don't have much other advice for you, (Sorry!).

No worries. Treating the existing fish is one thing, but in terms of the display tank do you think I'll be safe if I leave it fallow for 60 days or am I at the point where I need to tear everything down? Kind of rough for my first saltwater tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

No worries. Treating the existing fish is one thing, but in terms of the display tank do you think I'll be safe if I leave it fallow for 60 days or am I at the point where I need to tear everything down? Kind of rough for my first saltwater tank.

Yes - a fishless fallow period of 60 days will eliminate ich, velvet, brook and flukes.

The risk of course, is that new fish could bring disease back in….

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

Yes - a fishless fallow period of 60 days will eliminate ich, velvet, brook and flukes.

The risk of course, is that new fish could bring disease back in….

Yes - a fishless fallow period of 60 days will eliminate ich, velvet, brook and flukes.

The risk of course, is that new fish could bring disease back in….

Oh, lesson learned. All of this might have been avoided if I had done proper QT protocols. The shortcut has ended up in guilt and more work than the QT would have taken.

 

[Cornelia_Reefer]

Just wrapping this up, all three fish sadly passed.

The second clown passed the same day I moved it to the new QT.

The royal gramma lived several more days and seemed to be recovering slightly. It was still breathing hard but was eating. I decided to start a14-day metro program in the QT and the fish passed later the same day that I added the first dose.

So, a pretty big setback but several lessons learned. Fifty-three days left in my fallow period!