Save or Uethanize?

[madlos123]

So I got 7 blue green chromis 6 months ago at my local pet store. I QT them in a 10gallon. Went through ich, some kind of black ich, and some kind of bacterial infection/uronema, still dealing with maybe an internal parasite/worms. The 2 dead chromis died within 12 hours when the lesions came out 4 months ago. So its a very highly likely Uronema. Now another chromis started to developed some early lesions. Its been a month with no medication in the water/food

I already treated with copper for 1 month. Did Tank Transfer Method and Freshwater Dip.
I treated with metro soaked in the food and dosed on the water and prazi later.

They have been in quarantine for 6 months now and still going.

I can only see maybe 1 or 2 blue green chromis that is somewhat healthy.

So the questions is.
Should I try to save them or euthanize them?
Have they been all infected with uronema?
Is there a cure for uronema?
Do i risk infecting my other blue green chromis in my main display if I add only the healthy ones?
Give them away for free with a disclaimer?

What do you think?

 

[fishguy242]

hi, sorry to hear, lot of work invested, but not worth risk imo.
let's ask the experts.
@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 TIA.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I got 7 blue green chromis 6 months ago at my local pet store. I QT them in a 10gallon. Went through ich, some kind of black ich, and some kind of bacterial infection/uronema, still dealing with maybe an internal parasite/worms. The 2 dead chromis died within 12 hours when the lesions came out 4 months ago. So its a very highly likely Uronema. Now another chromis started to developed some early lesions. Its been a month with no medication in the water.

I already treated with copper for 1 month. Did Tank Transfer Method and Freshwater Dip.
I treated with metro soaked in the food and dosed on the water and prazi later.

They have been in quarantine for 6 months now and still going.

I can only see maybe 1 or 2 blue green chromis that is somewhat healthy.

So the questions is.
Should I try to save them or euthanize them?
Have they been all infected with uronema?
Is there a cure for uronema?
Do i risk infecting my other blue green chromis in my main display if I add only the healthy ones?
Give them away for free with a disclaimer?

What do you think?

Sorry to hear of issues. A couple of pics under white would be super helpful. All the meds you mentioned will not be a cure for uronema which the cure is formalin/formalin based meds such as quick cure or ruby rally pro.
To describe treatment, apply a 45 minute formalin bath with the meds just mentioned and then place fish in qurantine. Once in QT, continue treatment to assure all of the parasites have been cleared and fish healing.

Also if the fish are eating, soak their food in seachem Metro for 10-14 days. Also note although I dont recommend it as a sole use, Ruby rally Pro IS reef safe

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I got 7 blue green chromis 6 months ago at my local pet store. I QT them in a 10gallon. Went through ich, some kind of black ich, and some kind of bacterial infection/uronema, still dealing with maybe an internal parasite/worms. The 2 dead chromis died within 12 hours when the lesions came out 4 months ago. So its a very highly likely Uronema. Now another chromis started to developed some early lesions. Its been a month with no medication in the water/food

I already treated with copper for 1 month. Did Tank Transfer Method and Freshwater Dip.
I treated with metro soaked in the food and dosed on the water and prazi later.

They have been in quarantine for 6 months now and still going.

I can only see maybe 1 or 2 blue green chromis that is somewhat healthy.

So the questions is.
Should I try to save them or euthanize them?
Have they been all infected with uronema?
Is there a cure for uronema?
Do i risk infecting my other blue green chromis in my main display if I add only the healthy ones?
Give them away for free with a disclaimer?

What do you think?

My general rule is if I have fish that have symptoms of an undiagnosed disease, I never move them into a display tank with more valuable fish. That said, perhaps the chromis don't have an active disease, just scars from previous problems?
Can you post a short video of them?
How long has it been since the last fish died?

Uronema is present in most aquariums, it normally feeds on bacteria, not fish. It most often infects new fish. Eradicating it from a tank is not possible,

jay

 

[madlos123]

Will try to take a video too

 

[madlos123]

Probably a good 4 months ago the last fish that died.
Its hard taking a picture on a moving fish
If you look closely there are 3 to 4 horizontal whiteish pinkish discoloration on the body.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Probably a good 4 months ago the last fish that died.
Its hard taking a picture on a moving fish
If you look closely there are 3 to 4 horizontal whiteish pinkish discoloration on the body.

I don't see any overt signs of Uronema here, and four months is a really long time for it to show up.

I don't see any reason to euthanize these fish, and with the timeline (copper for 30 days, 4 months since the last loss) unless you've moved new fish into their tank, I don't see how they are going to get much more disease free. If you want to take one extra step, dose 2x with prazipro about 8 days apart, just in case there are flukes on the fish.

Jay

 

[fishguy242]

Sorry to hear of issues. A couple of pics under white would be super helpful. All the meds you mentioned will not be a cure for uronema which the cure is formalin/formalin based meds such as quick cure or ruby rally pro.
To describe treatment, apply a 45 minute formalin bath with the meds just mentioned and then place fish in qurantine. Once in QT, continue treatment to assure all of the parasites have been cleared and fish healing.

Also if the fish are eating, soak their food in seachem Metro for 10-14 days. Also note although I dont recommend it as a sole use, Ruby rally Pro IS reef safe

I don't see any overt signs of Uronema here, and four months is a really long time for it to show up.

I don't see any reason to euthanize these fish, and with the timeline (copper for 30 days, 4 months since the last loss) unless you've moved new fish into their tank, I don't see how they are going to get much more disease free. If you want to take one extra step, dose 2x with prazipro about 8 days apart, just in case there are flukes on the fish.

Jay

This is why i call you guys...
Thanks for all you both do here...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Will try to take a video too

These guys look pretty decent for Chromis. Generally see this on them:

 

[Dom]

How does one euthanize a fish???

 

[vetteguy53081]

How does one euthanize a fish???

be kind, apologize to fish, net it, place in a baggie and place baggie in freezer or skip the baggie and be mean like me and flush it, walk away and pop a beer

 

[Just John]

How does one euthanize a fish???

I have probably euthanized a hundred fish for research I was doing. The most humane way, IME is to put a razor blade just behind the head and hit it with a hammer. It's over for them instantly. No suffering for the fish, just for you, the fish murderer.

 

[Ocypode sinensis]

How does one euthanize a fish???

you can also net it, put it in a bucket and add clove oil, they will pass out and you can freeze them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How does one euthanize a fish???

Here is a section I wrote up on euthanasia:

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.

Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.

An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.

So how can aquarists best utilize the information presented here? First, it is obvious that unless you constantly monitor the mortality rates of the animals under your care, you have no way of knowing if your husbandry skills are improving. Second, this information should serve to reinforce the idea that taking animals from the wild and holding them in captivity carries with it an important responsibility.


Jay

 

[Dom]

Here is a section I wrote up on euthanasia:

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.

Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.

An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.

So how can aquarists best utilize the information presented here? First, it is obvious that unless you constantly monitor the mortality rates of the animals under your care, you have no way of knowing if your husbandry skills are improving. Second, this information should serve to reinforce the idea that taking animals from the wild and holding them in captivity carries with it an important responsibility.


Jay

Thank you, Jay. It was more curiosity than anything else.

 

[aws2266]

Here is a section I wrote up on euthanasia:

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.

Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.

An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.

So how can aquarists best utilize the information presented here? First, it is obvious that unless you constantly monitor the mortality rates of the animals under your care, you have no way of knowing if your husbandry skills are improving. Second, this information should serve to reinforce the idea that taking animals from the wild and holding them in captivity carries with it an important responsibility.


Jay

Lots of good info here that everyone should know.

 

[elcapitan1993]

How does one euthanize a fish???

I quick whack to the head with a hard object is the fastest way