Seachem AquaVitro Balance - Lies (The Bottle Says will not Affect Alkalinity) but it Raises Alkalini

[traxxonwaxx99]

FWIW, hydroxide raises the pH of a typical reef aquarium by about 0.6 to 0.7 pH units for each 0.5 meq/L (1.4 dKH) of alkalinity that it adds.

The exact value of the pH rise will depend on the starting pH and the starting alkalinity (with a bigger rise for lower starting pH and lower starting alkalinity).

So just curious, what is the difference between this product and dosing regular Soda Ash in 2 part? Both raise Alk and pH.

 

[that Reef Guy]

So just curious, what is the difference between this product and dosing regular Soda Ash in 2 part? Both raise Alk and pH.

I just use the powdered Alkalinity Buffer by Seachem.

It doesn't affect the PH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So just curious, what is the difference between this product and dosing regular Soda Ash in 2 part? Both raise Alk and pH.

Hydroxide ( as in the Seachem product or one of my newer DIY two parts) have twice the pH raising capacity per unit of alkalinity added, compared to sodium carbonate. [emoji3]

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

Hydroxide ( as in the Seachem product or one of my newer DIY two parts) have twice the pH raising capacity per unit of alkalinity added, compared to sodium carbonate. [emoji3]

Thanks Randy! Very interesting, so right now I'm using a Complete Balling method with Soda Ash and Aquaforest Ca + Mg and Aquaforest NaCl Free Salt. Would you recommend changing out the Soda Ash with a Hydroxide product? Is there any chemical difference? I'm dosing at 1:1:1 ratio, would there be any difference in dosing to maintain ionic balance?

Also, I run Zeovit and it has always been recommended against Kalk with Zeovit. Something about the bonding nature of the kalk and certain molecules? But I'm interested in maintaining a higher pH if Seachem Balance or any other Hydroxide product could substitute my Part 1 in balling.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy! Very interesting, so right now I'm using a Complete Balling method with Soda Ash and Aquaforest Ca + Mg and Aquaforest NaCl Free Salt. Would you recommend changing out the Soda Ash with a Hydroxide product? Is there any chemical difference? I'm dosing at 1:1:1 ratio, would there be any difference in dosing to maintain ionic balance?

Also, I run Zeovit and it has always been recommended against Kalk with Zeovit. Something about the bonding nature of the kalk and certain molecules? But I'm interested in maintaining a higher pH if Seachem Balance or any other Hydroxide product could substitute my Part 1 in balling.

If you want/need a higher pH, you can 1:1 (molar) swap in sodium hydroxide and swap out sodium carbonate. There is no other chemical effect except the pH.

I'm not convinced there's any issue with limewater and any method, but their objection (I think) is that it may precipitate some calcium phosphate (it might, but I can't see that being a problem). Anyway, the new method will do that too (if it happens).

I discuss it here:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Phosphate

Many reefkeepers accept the concept that adding limewater reduces phosphate levels. This may be true, but the mechanism remains to be demonstrated. Craig Bingman has done a variety of experiments related to this hypothesis, and has published them in the old Aquarium Frontiers. While many aquarists may not care what the mechanism is, knowing it would help to understand the limits of this method, and how it might best be employed.

Habib Sekha (Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria will exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way that can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity that such additions typically dump into the aquarium are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.).

It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels: phosphate binds to these growing surfaces, and becomes part of the solid precipitate. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding at lower and higher pH values. If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite having cut off all external phosphate sources. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may get buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 somehow dissolves. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the tank water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

An alternative mechanism for phosphate reduction via limewater may simply be the precipitation of calcium phosphate, Ca3(PO4)2. The water in many reef aquaria will be supersaturated with this material, as the equilibrium saturation concentration in normal seawater is only 0.002 ppm phosphate. The supersaturation of calcium phosphate will be even higher in the high pH/high calcium fluid present where limewater enters reef aquaria. The locally high pH converts much of the HPO4-- to PO4---, and it is the concentration of PO4--- that ultimately determines supersaturation. That high supersaturation may tip the balance to precipitation of calcium phosphate, just as too much limewater all at once can tip the balance to precipitation of calcium carbonate. As with CaCO3, the precipitation of Ca3(PO4)2 in seawater may be limited more by kinetic factors than by equilibrium factors, so it is impossible to say how much might precipitate under reef tank conditions (without, of course, somehow determining it experimentally).

As with the precipitation of CaCO3 containing some phosphate, if these calcium phosphate crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the tank water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

Thanks for the response Randy! I also forgot to mention that the balling method has me adding Iodide and Fluoride into the ALK mixture, would there be any issue mixing this into Sodium Hydroxide? Also, when you say 1:1 swap out, does that also mean the same amount to create stock solution as well as dosing amount? Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the response Randy! I also forgot to mention that the balling method has me adding Iodide and Fluoride into the ALK mixture, would there be any issue mixing this into Sodium Hydroxide? Also, when you say 1:1 swap out, does that also mean the same amount to create stock solution as well as dosing amount? Thanks!

Yes, you can add those into it.

here's one of the DIY recipes:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

In that recipe, I show that 282.8 g of sodium hydroxide can be swapped for the usual recipe of 374.7 g of sodium carbonate or 594 grams of sodium bicarbonate (before baking) in a gallon of RO/DI.

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

That’s really helpful, thanks Randy! Currently in my 3L stock solution of Aquaforest kh Buffer, I’m mixing 240g of Soda Ash. Just wanted to check, this would be equivalent to 181.14 sodium hydroxide?

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

Sorry for so many questions but I see sodium sulfate as a part of the recipe so as to not skew the Chloride. If I’m using complete balling (3rd part of NaCL Fee salt mix) is the sodium sulfate still required for ionic balance?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s really helpful, thanks Randy! Currently in my 3L stock solution of Aquaforest kh Buffer, I’m mixing 240g of Soda Ash. Just wanted to check, this would be equivalent to 181.14 sodium hydroxide?

Yep!

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

Yep!

Thanks Randy, is Sodium Sulfate still needed to add to the mixture if I'm doing 3 part balling? Can you direct me to a link that discusses the need for the sodium sulfate? Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have two diy systems that use sodium hydroxide. For a true two part (no third part) you need sodium sulfate to add the sulfate. In the other system, where there is a third part, the sulfate is provided by magnesium sulfate, but that chemical cannot be put into either of the other two parts, so cannot be used in a true two part system. There are recipe threads for both types in the chemistry forum.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

These are the threads. The first is 2 parts. The second is three.

New DIY Two Part Recipes with Higher pH Boost
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/second-new-diy-two-part-recipe-with-higher-ph-boost.357080/

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

I have two diy systems that use sodium hydroxide. For a true two part (no third part) you need sodium sulfate to add the sulfate. In the other system, where there is a third part, the sulfate is provided by magnesium sulfate, but that chemical cannot be put into either of the other two parts, so cannot be used in a true two part system. There are recipe threads for both types in the chemistry forum.

Gotcha, so basically I need to find out if the
Aquaforest NaCL free salt in the 3rd part contains MG Sulfate?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Gotcha, so basically I need to find out if the
Aquaforest NaCL free salt in the 3rd part contains MG Sulfate?

If you intend to use a sodium chloride free salt, you need just sodium hydroxide and calcium chloride to go with it. It has magnesium and sulfate in it (in fact, those are the two biggest ingredients by far).

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

Okay, thanks Randy!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay, thanks Randy!

You're welcome.

Happy reefing.

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

Hi Randy, I just wanted to double check on the conversion math here because in the 2 days that I switched over to sodium Hydroxide, I’ve had to increase my 3 part dosage from 72ml per day to 120ml per day and my Alk has still decreased about .7dkh over the 48hour period. I was originally making my stock solution from 240g of Soda Ash and dosing 72ml. We had determined that the equivalent would be 181g of Sodium Hydroxide. It just seems like it’s not producing the results equaling the Alk raise I need.

I know you said that Sodium Hydroxide uses the CO2 in the tank water to create Carbonate, could it be that there is not enough CO2 in my system to convert? Or is that not a possible culprit to my decreasing Alk.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks Randy!!

 

[Michelle Crossley]

Does anyone know if it Is it reef safe please

 

[ShelaghM]

I shook it up real good but when I added it a million large flakes were floating around the tank.


It looked like I dosed some Coral Food.


Is that normal?


Or did I get a Bad Bottle of it?

Mine does the same but it soon goes