Seeking pictures and video of verified ammonia toxicity in fish

[brandon429]

Team

In order to help new tank cyclers plagued by api and Red Sea ammonia test kit misreads I really need to collect video and pictures of the outward symptoms associated with true ammonia toxicity

This forum has those proofs due to use of low surface area quarantine setups and there are likely direct studies available I can find here showing opercular rates, reddened gills, flashing, aerotaxis and other obvious signs we don’t need a cheap test kit to discover and relate to ammonia

we need to see that example set please so that cyclers can relate their fish acting perfectly fine to ammonia control vs ammonia noncontrol AND so they can learn to separate common disease symptoms from the real signs of being in a high ammonia environment


**the challenge** is that in a new display tank which is able to clearly handle ammonia due to bottle bacteria use (Dr Reefs study ends any doubt on how long bottle bac require to carry fish after addition: he has a seneye backed study on file we can see) any symptoms whatsoever fish may show due to skipping all disease preps are directly linked to a broken cycle. Fish with torn fins? Broken cycle.

fish shimmying at the bottom of the tank? Broke cycle

new clownfish held in stressful LFS quarantine, likely in hypo, bought and taken home and placed in a reef tank running three weeks after a fritz bottle bac cycle in the display refuses to eat assertively? Broken cycle, they buy more bottled bacteria

new clownfish skipping all disease preps and acclimation work added to a new tank on week six after a Fritz cycle rubs against a rock surface occasionally? Must be that .2 Red Sea ammonia reading burning them, they’re told by peers to buy more bottle bac

*When new cyclers blame all symptoms on ammonia they lose the ability to actually help fish: adding more bottled bacteria as they’re trained doesn’t help with flukes, or brook, or crypto*

please can we see examples of real ammonia burns


The examples won’t come from display tanks and cycled rock, weeks after having used a one day bottle bac treatment, that’s the safe zone for ammonia control due to surface area and the problem we are trying to address: reef displays do not lack ammonia control.

Pics and video of harmed fish acting harmed will be from low surface area holding systems or transport bags, we need to see them to set up that contrast and help cyclers learn to identify the real symptomatology associated with lost ammonia control.

Im hoping to get a few clear examples here so we can link this thread in our updated cycling science studies and work threads / cycle troubleshoots

 

[TokenReefer]

any symptoms whatsoever fish may show due to skipping all disease preps are directly linked to a broken cycle. Fish with torn fins? Broken cycle.

Torn fins? Who's making the connection there?

Not trying to discredit anything you're doing. Just wondering who this is aimed at. Clearly people connecting things erroneously need correcting, but is this the majority way of thinking?

 

[brandon429]

All those examples are symptoms encountered in the last week alone of cycle troubleshoots

when I say every symptom including just a half-closed anemone is blamed on cycling, it’s true:

EMERGENCY - ammonia help

im having the most random ammonia spike in my nano 10 gallon, its been setup since beginning of sept 2022, and i added a bubble tip anemone about a week and a half ago its been happy and all has been good until yesterday morning i woke up and it looked as if it had started to melt away and then...

www.reef2reef.com

can you help us find any actual pics or video of verified ammonia toxicity in a qt or shipping bag incident

it will be tempting to turn this thread into a cycling proof thread but we do those daily in the general forum, for this thread we need the rare proofs of what ammonia burning in fish looks like


video would be ideal, mainly so we can see opercular rates and taxis behavior seeking oxygen through burned gills

 

[MnFish1]

My strong guess is that you won't see many responses here - not because examples don't exist, but because people are not going to waste their time doing it. It is clear - based on numerous references that ammonia is toxic to fish - especially at high pH (i.e. not the usual pH that we accept in reefing). I agree with you that many people blame a stuck cycle or an ammonia level on something totally unrelated

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I honestly don't understand why you're so interested in trying to prove that ammonia is never to blame for anything gone wrong (or that's how it seems at least based on many of your posts). Why would anyone want to video their fish dying of ammonia poisoning for you? The LD50 of ammonia is pretty well documented...I'm unsure exactly what you expect from threads like these...

 

[brandon429]

It’s a common event in quarantine attempts and I’ve seen videos but they’re from the past, was hoping Jay might have some insight or literature showing the issue in a verified way attributed to ammonia



the thread title should be the basis of any responses, please team don’t devolve this into the 450th is it cycled argument. I simply asked to see data on file or known ammonia burns so we have a place to study contrasts to common pics from display setups. this is a clear request for existing videos and or pics people feel are attributed to ammonia burning, the initial responses are leading the thread into a fully opposite direction from the title.

I wasn’t seeking confirmation that ammonia events are often false, the request was for demonstration of what ammonia burn looks like

perhaps someone can post a read on the objective symptoms of ammonia burning in fish, that would be very helpful

then readers can at least reference that objective data during cycle assessments


the fish disease forum and it’s quarantine association is the #1 location most likely to encounter video of what Im requesting. Forums dedicated to display reefs aren’t

 

[TokenReefer]

perhaps someone can post a read on the objective symptoms of ammonia burning in fish, that would be very helpful

For those who are seeking information...and don't feel like searching on thier own (I guess)

From https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

Toxicity of Ammonia
Ammonia is very toxic to marine fish. The mechanisms of toxicity are complicated and are an active area of continued investigation by researchers. Its effects include damage to the gills, resulting in poor gas exchange, ion regulation and blood pH regulation.14 Other effects include hampering oxygen delivery to tissues, disrupting metabolism and toxicity to the nervous system that causes hyperactivity, convulsions and death.14 Ammonia can also be very toxic to many other organisms found in reef aquaria.

Toxicity can be measured and reported in many ways. One common way to measure acute toxicity is to measure how high the concentration needs to be in order to kill half of the organisms in a given time period. A commonly used time period is 96 hours (four days). Such data are called the 96 h LC50 (LC stands for Lethal Concentration, 50 meaning 50% killed).

The other complication that comes with ammonia's toxicity is the relative amount of free ammonia and ammonium ion. While ammonium ion may be toxic to marine fish, it is probably less toxic than free ammonia, and toxicity data are often reported only for the concentration of free ammonia. Aquarists should recognize, however, that such data may not be appropriate if the pH used in the test, or the situation to which it will be applied, deviates significantly from normal seawater's pH (as in a shipping bag, for example, whose pH may be well below pH 8.2, and whose toxicity may actually be coming from ammonium, and not the low concentration of free ammonia). Nevertheless, many scientific articles report ammonia toxicity in ppm (or mg/L) NH3-N. It may also be reported as just ppm NH3.

Marine fish14 generally have 96 h LC50 levels that range from about 0.09 to 3.35 ppm NH3-N. That result is not particularly different from the range observed for freshwater fish,14 0.068 to 2.0 ppm NH3-N. Remember that these values are ppm NH3-N, and at pH 8.2, the marine range becomes 1.3 to 50 ppm total NH4-N because only 7% of the total ammonia in seawater is present as free ammonia.

Concentrations of ammonia that are not acutely lethal can still cause significant problems for fish. Salmon in seawater at pH 7.8, for example, show changes in white blood cells and various blood chemicals, and were more prone to disease, when exposed to sublethal concentrations of ammonia.15 Consequently, aquarists should strive to keep ammonia concentrations well below lethal levels.

 

[TokenReefer]

I think you're onto something with false correlation and trying to fix that but I don't think a lot of time/effort should be spent debating the toxicity of Ammonia...

 

[MnFish1]

It’s a common event in quarantine attempts and I’ve seen videos but they’re from the past, was hoping Jay might have some insight or literature showing the issue in a verified way attributed to ammonia

I don’t understand why you post in my threads BKK I’m completely unsubbed to yours, you literally don’t see me posting in yours. I do cycle troubleshoots in other people’s tanks and the demand is daily, for years, let’s simply never interact on the matter to solve your stresses with my discoveries. You know this wasn’t a request to burn fish on purpose, it was for past examples of fish harm in low surface area setups prone to true ammonia issues. People may have videos handy on that like they do for acclimation stresses when I asked for those video examples.

staying clear of each other’s posts is ideal, to avoid word play arguments LLBKK, a reply back to this post isn’t even helpful, we should simply steer clear and that solves your problem.

the thread title should be the basis of any responses, please team don’t devolve this into the 450th is it cycled argument. I simply asked to see data on file or known ammonia burns so we have a place to study contrasts to common pics from display setups. this is a clear request for existing videos and or pics people feel are attributed to ammonia burning, the initial responses are leading the thread into a fully opposite direction from the title.

I wasn’t seeking confirmation that ammonia events are often false, the request was for demonstration of what ammonia burn looks like

perhaps someone can post a read on the objective symptoms of ammonia burning in fish, that would be very helpful

then readers can at least reference that objective data during cycle assessments


the fish disease forum and it’s quarantine association is the #1 location most likely to encounter video of what Im requesting. Forums dedicated to display reefs aren’t

So to clarify? Perhaps?


1. The prior issues with cycling - have been replaced by disease quarantine issues ??

Answer - There is a difference between adding a fish into a tank already cycled - and adding multiple fish to a new tank. I don't know the percentage - but they are 2 different issues.

2. Ammonia is not toxic because we can now measure in some tanks - a free ammonia - with a huge amount of error - with a Seneye that very very few people have found necessary. Perhaps that mitigates for your position that ammonia doesn't matter - but neither does the Seneye ammonia monitor.

3. Stop complaining about people posting in your threads - - FOR SOME REASON - IDK why - this post showed up in my thread - my guess is that no one - including BKK is not stalking you - perhaps - talk to @Daniel2R2R OR The rest of the mods

BUT if you really want @Jay Hemdal to answer - tag him @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So to clarify? Perhaps?


1. The prior issues with cycling - have been replaced by disease quarantine issues ??

Answer - There is a difference between adding a fish into a tank already cycled - and adding multiple fish to a new tank. I don't know the percentage - but they are 2 different issues.

2. Ammonia is not toxic because we can now measure in some tanks - a free ammonia - with a huge amount of error - with a Seneye that very very few people have found necessary. Perhaps that mitigates for your position that ammonia doesn't matter - but neither does the Seneye ammonia monitor.

3. Stop complaining about people posting in your threads - - FOR SOME REASON - IDK why - this post showed up in my thread - my guess is that no one - including BKK is not stalking you - perhaps - talk to @Daniel2R2R OR The rest of the mods

BUT if you really want @Jay Hemdal to answer - tag him @Jay Hemdal

I actually have very little firsthand experience with ammonia toxicity - having spent 50+ years avoiding any issues (grin). All of my recent experience has been ammonia during shipping, and how to manage that.

“ammonia burns” are seen in shipped fish, and may well be burns from the low pH seen at the same time.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I actually have very little firsthand experience with ammonia toxicity - having spent 50+ years avoiding any issues (grin). All of my recent experience has been ammonia during shipping, and how to manage that.

“ammonia burns” are seen in shipped fish, and may well be burns from the low pH seen at the same time.

Jay

That was also my point - that new fish are the ones that tend to have problems in tanks. They are also the ones that tend to have problems with disease.

 

[brandon429]

I figured nine or ten videos would be available given the number of posts with the word ammonia involved + sampling from the group most likely to see it

It's as common as day in reefing: the claim that we see sustained free ammonia events routinely in various reefing setups especially cycles


I'm not really buying that thousands of new cyclers for twenty years lucked into patterned perfect pH so as to protect their system from dangerous nh3 form expression, they weren't copying methods that support even pH expression across the board, they are copying surface area ratios, dilution patterns and bacteria sourcing such that inherent ammonia control is the benefit

An entire industry thrives on and exists to sell us reinforcements for a phenomena that doesn't need reinforced. That's fascinating. Since there aren't a lot of videos/ we can devolve into a cycle theory push lol

 

[brandon429]

anywhere people are potentially being sold things they don't need is fascinating to inspect

the whole post on Prime was a big example of that.

I was thinking with all the seneye meters out there, someone has one running on a qt and can show some events. I'll have to re ask this poll in 2028 to get the right quick data... we won't need video we'll have seneye logs showing the real increase / noncontrol event

within a few more years six or eight different makers of digital nh3 testers will exist to benchmark each other is the bet, and we can wait until then to compare trends in surface area, dilution and sourcing to how we think they work now.

we should be aiming cyclers with our advice to where the real concern is: it's not ammonia control. imagine if millions of people stopped buying extra surface area for their display sumps and filters in reef tanks due to the discovery their purchases provided no benefit. finding out that a cornerstone of our training (do or buy X or you will lose ammonia control) has been a placebo the whole time is interesting study in my opinion.

 

[MnFish1]

anywhere people are potentially being sold things they don't need is fascinating to inspect

the whole post on Prime was a big example of that.

I was thinking with all the seneye meters out there, someone has one running on a qt and can show some events. I'll have to re ask this poll in 2028 to get the right quick data... we won't need video we'll have seneye logs showing the real increase / noncontrol event

within a few more years six or eight different makers of digital nh3 testers will exist to benchmark each other is the bet, and we can wait until then to compare trends in surface area, dilution and sourcing to how we think they work now.

we should be aiming cyclers with our advice to where the real concern is: it's not ammonia control. imagine if millions of people stopped buying extra surface area for their display sumps and filters in reef tanks due to the discovery their purchases provided no benefit. finding out that a cornerstone of our training (do or buy X or you will lose ammonia control) has been a placebo the whole time is interesting study in my opinion.

I would suggest that any company developing an 'ammonia sensor' - that you have basically yourself said is 'useless' - doesn't have a very strong business model?

But re-read what I actually said - not what you might have thought I said?

What I said is basically - ammonia is only toxic at HIGHER pH when it is at low levels. We already know nitrite is non-toxic. Thus - you're not likely to get videos of sick fish - because very few 'beginner tanks' with a let's say 0.5 ammonia have a pH of 8.2-8.3. Especially in closed houses with air conditioners or furnaces running with windows closed.

However, increasing sump surface area, etc etc - obviously does help with cycling. Take it to extreme - put a lemon peel angel in a 1 gallon jar with new salt water. with an ayirstone and see how long it lives. It can't be 0xygen, the oxygen is managed by thee airstone. It can't be CO2 - thats managed by the ayirstone. So I disagree with your fundamental point that with cycling, ammonia is 'not important. It all depends on bio load, the method of cycling, and probably surface area and water flow.

Also however, are there many things in reefing that may not be necessary? Sure. I have cycled 30-50 tanks - I have never tested ammonia. I transfer 7 Koi into a 72 gallon tank for a couple months over the winter - bottled bacteria goes in on day 0, fish go in on day 1. Never checked ammonia. (The tank is empty during the summer - i.e. not running/cycled). Do we really NEED to know the alkalinity every 3 hours? Once a day? Once a week? I haven't checked my alkalinity for 3 months. Do we need water changes - I haven't changed my water for 3 months. Do we need daily weekly refractometer readings? I would say no - perhaps once a month. HOWEVER. If I see a problem even slight developing with my tank - I do check those things - and if needed - correct it.

So - in case you hadn't gotten the point yet lol - I agree with you - its going to be difficult to get people to post pictures of fish sick from ammonia - for IMHO 1000 reasons having nothing to do with whether ammonia is a a problem or not.

 

[MnFish1]

anywhere people are potentially being sold things they don't need is fascinating to inspect

the whole post on Prime was a big example of that.

I don't want to stir up that hornets nest again - BUT - IMHO - the testing was not conclusive except in the settings used in the test - which were small test tubes. Since it was not tested in an aquarium - I don't think you can say its 'useless' in helping protect fish (and I would agree with you - probably in RARE circumstances)

 

[TokenReefer]

So - in case you hadn't gotten the point yet lol - I agree with you - its going to be difficult to get people to post pictures of fish sick from ammonia - for IMHO 1000 reasons having nothing to do with whether ammonia is a a problem or not.

Couldnt agree more and better said than I could have myself. Too many reasons... Oh... Imho

 

[brandon429]

EMERGENCY - Ammonia burn in QT

Greetings, today I woke up to find that my flasher wrasse got ammonia burned in QT while I was asleep. I still could barely measure any ammonia using the salifert ammonia test, but the gill burn is obvious. I went to pharmacies and after searching for hours finally found one that would sell me a...

www.reef2reef.com

working on a lead, directly relevant to the thread's goal + title

it's very hard to find potential real ammonia burns.