Sea chem ammonia badge ?

[christwendt]

So I’m having this problem and I just lost two fish. I have this qt going and before I added copper I was having ammonia problems. I gave it a few weeks for bio filter and pretty much daily water changes. I was using Red Sea ammonia kit. When it seemed I could go 3 days and there was still zero ammonia I added a sea chem badge and started dosing copper. From what I read, I can’t use Red Sea kit when copper is in place because it gives false readings. Well day two fish were swimming in to the surface and day three they were laying on side( midas, leopard wrasse). They were in the qt for two weeks doing great eating etc not acting weird). I fed 3 times the third day because the badge was not showing any ammonia and by the 4th day two were dead. I’m positive it was ammonia because I had this problem before months ago.
I’m confused because I even tested the badge over windex bottle and it changed immediately in color. I feel I can’t trust this badge. So how do I know when there is ammonia if there is no way to test with copper in place ?

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I’m having this problem and I just lost two fish. I have this qt going and before I added copper I was having ammonia problems. I gave it a few weeks for bio filter and pretty much daily water changes. I was using Red Sea ammonia kit. When it seemed I could go 3 days and there was still zero ammonia I added a sea chem badge and started dosing copper. From what I read, I can’t use Red Sea kit when copper is in place because it gives false readings. Well day two fish were swimming in to the surface and day three they were laying on side( midas, leopard wrasse). They were in the qt for two weeks doing great eating etc not acting weird). I fed 3 times the third day because the badge was not showing any ammonia and by the 4th day two were dead. I’m positive it was ammonia because I had this problem before months ago.
I’m confused because I even tested the badge over windex bottle and it changed immediately in color. I feel I can’t trust this badge. So how do I know when there is ammonia if there is no way to test with copper in place ?

I recommend Hanna copper kit and I dont trust the badge after 2 weeks of use and especially exposed to copper, A reliable kit is worth the cost . Why trust an $8 device to sustain an investment of fish.

 

[exnisstech]

Issues like you are having are the exact reason I stopped doing medicated QT. Too many fish would die for no obvious reason whatsoever. I now have a cycled tank and do observation only for 30 days or longer. I know it's not recommended. I have been though a velvet outbreak once so I understand the importance of QT but I swear I'm loosing more fish in medicated QT than I did from velvet just not all at once. If a fish appears healthy and is eating well after 30 days into the DT it goes. This is just how I do it now and not a recommendation as it has risks.

 

[Rusty_L_Shackleford]

Issues like you are having are the exact reason I stopped doing medicated QT. Too many fish would die for no obvious reason whatsoever. I now have a cycled tank and do observation only for 30 days or longer. I know it's not recommended. I have been though a velvet outbreak once so I understand the importance of QT but I swear I'm loosing more fish in medicated QT than I did from velvet just not all at once. If a fish appears healthy and is eating well after 30 days into the DT it goes. This is just how I do it now and not a recommendation as it has risks.

This is how I do it. My displays are 32 and 34 gallons respectively so I keep a 10g "qt" up and running at all times with some saltwater black mollies in it. Most of my fish are small gobies and such which in my experience don't handle meds like copper very well. So they get around 30 days of observation and then they go into the display. If something pops up then I treat it.

 

[christwendt]

I recommend Hanna copper kit and I dont trust the badge after 2 weeks of use and especially exposed to copper, A reliable kit is worth the cost . Why trust an $8 device to sustain an investment of fish.

What kit can I use to test for ammonia if I have copper in the water other than the badge ? I have Hannah copper kit. My problem is from what I read if you have copper in the water you can’t use traditional ammonia tests to test for ammonia. Only the badge works.

 

[christwendt]

This is how I do it. My displays are 32 and 34 gallons respectively so I keep a 10g "qt" up and running at all times with some saltwater black mollies in it. Most of my fish are small gobies and such which in my experience don't handle meds like copper very well. So they get around 30 days of observation and then they go into the display. If something pops up then I treat it.

Yea I have done that before with mollies. You think gobies don’t handle copper well? Didn’t know that. I just really don’t want to risk it and wanted to pre treat but might do that. I actually have a Molly still alive from over a year ago lol.

 

[christwendt]

Issues like you are having are the exact reason I stopped doing medicated QT. Too many fish would die for no obvious reason whatsoever. I now have a cycled tank and do observation only for 30 days or longer. I know it's not recommended. I have been though a velvet outbreak once so I understand the importance of QT but I swear I'm loosing more fish in medicated QT than I did from velvet just not all at once. If a fish appears healthy and is eating well after 30 days into the DT it goes. This is just how I do it now and not a recommendation as it has risks.

I feel what you’re a saying. I have such a nice display with tangs and butterfly fish. I really can’t chance anything and can’t fish hide ich for over a month and just not display signs? I know you mention there is risk. I feel it had to be ammonia though and if I had a way to test i would be okay. I see what you’re saying though. I could always even observe for like 2 months. No rush.

 

[christwendt]

Issues like you are having are the exact reason I stopped doing medicated QT. Too many fish would die for no obvious reason whatsoever. I now have a cycled tank and do observation only for 30 days or longer. I know it's not recommended. I have been though a velvet outbreak once so I understand the importance of QT but I swear I'm loosing more fish in medicated QT than I did from velvet just not all at once. If a fish appears healthy and is eating well after 30 days into the DT it goes. This is just how I do it now and not a recommendation as it has risks.

Do you still feed medicated foods and treat with prazi / metro. Or only observe ?

 

[exnisstech]

Do you still feed medicated foods and treat with prazi / metro. Or only observe ?

I do observation only now. Like you I have some nice tangs that have been with me for over 6 years. My purple and Naso made it through the velvet outbreak so I have a special attachment to them. My copperband is my last fish added around 9 months or so ago and I did observation only with zero meds. To be honest I don't add fish often these days but my last two attempts at copper treated QT ended like yours, dead fish. I have ran fish though copper before and had no problem so I'm not sure what went wrong. I also used an ammonia badge and have for years. I did nothing different that I'm aware of but the fish still died. I do not want to discourage you from treating fish in QT. Perhaps @Jay Hemdal can help out on how to monitor ammonia while treating with copper. If it's in the stickies my appologies Jay. I'm busy at the moment and don't have time to search.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I’m having this problem and I just lost two fish. I have this qt going and before I added copper I was having ammonia problems. I gave it a few weeks for bio filter and pretty much daily water changes. I was using Red Sea ammonia kit. When it seemed I could go 3 days and there was still zero ammonia I added a sea chem badge and started dosing copper. From what I read, I can’t use Red Sea kit when copper is in place because it gives false readings. Well day two fish were swimming in to the surface and day three they were laying on side( midas, leopard wrasse). They were in the qt for two weeks doing great eating etc not acting weird). I fed 3 times the third day because the badge was not showing any ammonia and by the 4th day two were dead. I’m positive it was ammonia because I had this problem before months ago.
I’m confused because I even tested the badge over windex bottle and it changed immediately in color. I feel I can’t trust this badge. So how do I know when there is ammonia if there is no way to test with copper in place ?

It's tricky. Which copper product are you using? A few years ago, I ran some tests for total ammonia, after adding the three common copper meds to samples, and this is the baseline ammonia readings for a full dose:

Coppersafe = 0.46 ppm
Copper Power = 0.52 ppm
Cupramine = 0.02 ppm

The idea is to subtract these values from the total ammonia reading for the tank, and that will give you the free ammonia level. However, if you have used ammonia neutralizing compounds, the chemistry gets really weird and all bets are off.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

So I’m having this problem and I just lost two fish. I have this qt going and before I added copper I was having ammonia problems. I gave it a few weeks for bio filter and pretty much daily water changes. I was using Red Sea ammonia kit. When it seemed I could go 3 days and there was still zero ammonia I added a sea chem badge and started dosing copper. From what I read, I can’t use Red Sea kit when copper is in place because it gives false readings. Well day two fish were swimming in to the surface and day three they were laying on side( midas, leopard wrasse). They were in the qt for two weeks doing great eating etc not acting weird). I fed 3 times the third day because the badge was not showing any ammonia and by the 4th day two were dead. I’m positive it was ammonia because I had this problem before months ago.
I’m confused because I even tested the badge over windex bottle and it changed immediately in color. I feel I can’t trust this badge. So how do I know when there is ammonia if there is no way to test with copper in place ?

Generally speaking most people find them accurate - however - it's always good to have a backup test to double check. Are you sure your copper test was accurate - and that there wasn't another disease not sensitive to copper present?

I wonder if its possible that you damaged the badge with windex - which has an extremely high ammonia content (I wouldn't have done that FWIW)

 

[christwendt]

It's tricky. Which copper product are you using? A few years ago, I ran some tests for total ammonia, after adding the three common copper meds to samples, and this is the baseline ammonia readings for a full dose:

Coppersafe = 0.46 ppm
Copper Power = 0.52 ppm
Cupramine = 0.02 ppm

The idea is to subtract these values from the total ammonia reading for the tank, and that will give you the free ammonia level. However, if you have used ammonia neutralizing compounds, the chemistry gets really weird and all bets are off.

Jay

I’m using copper power. So you’re saying just use Red Sea test kit and subtract 0.52 from what my reading is? I also thought ammonia neutralizing products can’t be used with copper as they make the copper toxic.

 

[christwendt]

Generally speaking most people find them accurate - however - it's always good to have a backup test to double check. Are you sure your copper test was accurate - and that there wasn't another disease not sensitive to copper present?

I wonder if its possible that you damaged the badge with windex - which has an extremely high ammonia content (I wouldn't have done that FWIW)

I suppose that is possible but they were doing great for 2 weeks until I got lazy relying on the badge and didn’t do a water change for 3 days. I’m also noticing poop settling on bottom of tank. So I wonder if I need more flow to kick that into my hang in the back filters.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m using copper power. So you’re saying just use Red Sea test kit and subtract 0.52 from what my reading is? I also thought ammonia neutralizing products can’t be used with copper as they make the copper toxic.

Yes, the idea is that 0.5 is the ammonia from the copper power, that is bound up and not toxic to fish. Any ammonia above that, if not combined with ammonia neutralizer would be the toxic component, and that shoujd be less than 0.25 ppm if posdinke.

I worry about using ammonia neutralizing agents with amine based copper, but people do it. For sure you can’t do that with Cupramine, but the jury is still out on copper power or copper safe.

Jay

 

[christwendt]

Yes, the idea is that 0.5 is the ammonia from the copper power, that is bound up and not toxic to fish. Any ammonia above that, if not combined with ammonia neutralizer would be the toxic component, and that shoujd be less than 0.25 ppm if posdinke.

I worry about using ammonia neutralizing agents with amine based copper, but people do it. For sure you can’t do that with Cupramine, but the jury is still out on copper power or copper safe.

Jay

What if my Red Sea test kit is showing zero ammonia while I have copper in my tank. Is it okay to use traditional ammonia test kits while using copper? I’m at 1.5 reading copper on Hannah. And the ammonia test kit from Red Sea says zero it’s yellow. Can I trust this ammonia reading with the presence of copper? Or should it always be reading 0.5.