Seneye PAR Meter worth it?

[joeboots82520]

Thinking about getting a Seneye Reef to use as a PAR meter worth it or should I just buck up and spend money on a dedicated meter? Just want to adjust my Radions that I'm switching to wide angle lenes and want to make sure I get near the same par I had with TIR lenes that I set up with a rented Apogee.

 

[cromag27]

From what I've heard - no. I would use the apogee or even a lux meter.

 

[mcarroll]

It's worthing knowing what you're getting – and the Seneye does appear to be fairly different from most light meters due to the lens they use – but I dunno if I'd swear off a Seneye's light metering altogether.

I think it may be hard to compare readings with other folks....and it's possible that it has a unique learning curve. I think having a "standard" lux meter like the lx-1010b to use along side the Seneye would be both helpful and useful. (I think I'd say the same if you were talking about a PAR meter. It would be nice if everyone with a PAR meter was as familiar with lux numbers.)

 

[joeboots82520]

Is there a lux to par conversion? I know the term par gets tossed around referring to measuring light output. So if I were to get my hands on one or the other (par or lux meter) can I convert the measurements to compare?

 

[joeboots82520]

@mcarroll I just looked at the lux meter you referenced. I dont have much if any experience with measuring aquarium lighting but I'm curious how reading light measurements above the water would help with adjusting lighting intensity. Don't take that the wrong way I would just like it explained so I can learn. I kind of thought lighting should be adjusted per individual tank set up due to depth, rock scape, etc.

 

[mcarroll]

The nutshell version is that our eyeballs are about as un-objective as you get.

If you're trying to set a tank so that it has more than 30,000 lux so you can keep clams....good luck doing that without a meter.

Also, lighting changes can have a big impact on corals, so using a lux meter - even if you only measure at the water surface - can give you an objective idea about the amount of light in one place (or over one tank) compared to another, or between setting changes. This will keep you from making changes that are too drastic.

You do have to keep in mind differences between lights if you're comparing them, but many lights follow very similar blue-heavy lighting formulas, so there's more consistency than not. Lenses and mounting height are probably the two main big differences to watch out for. Lenses are usually 120º by default – 90º typically give a 20-30% boost to intensity; 60º give a 40-50% boost, etc...

It's also useful to know that our tanks don't vary a lot – the vast most are between 12" and 24" deep. So you don't have to search very long or hard to find someone who's made a PAR map for their tank that would be similar to your tank. Just find a PAR map that has a similar surface measurement to yours because surface measurements are more comparable than underwater readings.

Of course there's more to it – corals aren't nearly as picky about light as people think....pickiness they do have is mostly situational. Etc. etc....

 

[joeboots82520]

Thank you very much that was a good nutshell. I totally agree with you on the "eye" test thats why I want to get the appropriate equipment to make the adjustments. The stock lenes on the radions are 80 degrees and the wide angle are 120 I'm looking for a more spread lighting then the spot light effect the stock lenes are providing. I only run them at 38% so I know I have ample space to adjust them with a wider angle lens. I will pick up a lux meter and start there. Do you have a general starting point for what I should shoot for at the water surface? I will start looking around for more information so I have a better understanding as well.

 

[Lninwa]

Based on what I viewed on Bulk Reef Supply 52 weeks of reeding I bought a Seneye. They compared it to a Licore which is very high end and the PAR readings were the same. With the Seneye there is the added benefit of ammonia monitoring. I haven't set mine up yet.

 

[mcarroll]

Thank you very much that was a good nutshell. I totally agree with you on the "eye" test thats why I want to get the appropriate equipment to make the adjustments. The stock lenes on the radions are 80 degrees and the wide angle are 120 I'm looking for a more spread lighting then the spot light effect the stock lenes are providing. I only run them at 38% so I know I have ample space to adjust them with a wider angle lens. I will pick up a lux meter and start there. Do you have a general starting point for what I should shoot for at the water surface? I will start looking around for more information so I have a better understanding as well.

Spotlights are going to be spotlights....just switching lenses can't really solve that problem.

Can you tell us in more detail why the current spread/spotlight effect seems to be a problem?

Oops
Also, somehow I slightly misread the OP....if you aren't already considering a Seneye, this isn't really a reason to unload three figures worth of cash in my opinion.

You can do what you have in mind with a free lux meter app or a handheld lux meter (like the "lx-1010b") that you can for less than $15, delivered.

You simply measure your lights at the water surface as they are.....at least take a sample of the peak(s) and samples from around the perimeter...some samples in between may be useful too.

Then after you make the changes, measure the new lights and try to get the same samples to match as closely as you can. +/- a few thousand lux shouldn't be a problem, but if there's any doubt, a little extra food/nutrients in the system is a help to corals during transitions like this.

 

[luke33]

If you want to see the light intensity in your tank use a par meter. A lux meter generally can't be put underwater which really makes them pointless. You can usually find a par meter to borrow, if you can borrow an apogee then do it. I bought an apogee meter years ago and it's worth its weight in gold if you ask me.

 

[mcarroll]

Not pointless. :) I'd recommend a forum search on "lux" to see how folks are using them.

Like this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/search/1398818/?q=lux+meter&o=relevance

 

[jamesbog283]

I just borrowed an apogee par meter from my lfs. Not exactly sure what I'm doing with it but is gave me a bit of an idea what I'm getting a different depths in the tank and around my aqua scape.
I'm new to the hobby and have only a 29gal marineland tank. 12x30x18" deep. My light s are 185 maxspect razor the measurements i took were 84%on both channels . Here is what I was able to map...can anyone tell me if this is too much or too little for a mixed reef tank?

 

[luke33]

Not pointless. :) I'd recommend a forum search on "lux" to see how folks are using them.

Like this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/search/1398818/?q=lux+meter&o=relevance

I understand how they are used. I just find them pointless myself as you can only get a reading in air and par at times really decreases trying to penatrate water, so your always guessing with a lux meter. Your much better off borrowing a par meter vs buying a lux meter.

 

[mcarroll]

If you compare PAR maps of several tanks and control for what lights people are using, there's really not all that much variation. If you can compare peak lux at the surface between two tanks – even using someone else's PAR map as one of the readings – it's not that hard to get yourself into the right neighborhood. Since corals are so adaptable, that's really all it takes to make them happy.

Plus, I think you might find with practice that you can interpret more with a lux meter than you think. I have not felt particularly limited in the three or so years I've been using mine, for what that's worth.

Last, if you have a PAR meter or submersible lux meter like Milwaukeee's that's great....but why poo poo less expensive options that you don't even plan to try? More people should be using them, but instead more people just guess at their lights....some of them do this because they get the idea that these affordable meters are "pointless". :rolleyes:

Dana Riddle explains the details better than most:
Product Review: Lighting for Reef Aquaria: Tips on Taking Light Measurements

 

[71xlch]

Lux is not ideal, par is better as it measures light output from ~400-700nm only. Which is the band of light we care most about even then par started out in horticulture. PPFD is preferred measurement these days. You don't see Sanjay using a lux meter.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Lux is not ideal, par is better as it measures light output from ~400-700nm only. Which is the band of light we care most about even then par started out in horticulture. PPFD is preferred measurement these days. You don't see Sanjay using a lux meter.

no but Dana gives lux to par conversions. I sat in a room with both of them. its science and it works.

apogee also gives lux par conversions too.

either would work esp in this case. if you have the desired spectrum set your only worried about intensity.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lighting-upgrade-with-a-lux-meter-saltyfilmfolks.248417/

 

[mcarroll]

Lux is not ideal, par is better[...]You don't see Sanjay using a lux meter.

:rolleyes:

Sanjay
I paid close attention to Sanjay in the halide days – his bulb/ballast project was awesome and crucial to my first setup. I can't even find that halide/ballast comparator online anymore. Not last time I tried anyway....no reply from manhattenreefs when I messaged them. :(

From the last couple of times I heard about him, isn't he a representative for Ecotech now?

PAR meters
If you have a PAR meter, or access to one, then great for you I suppose. Thing is, I'm not sure your position is helpful to very many of the folks who don't have a PAR meter though.

Since PAR meter owners appear to be vastly outnumbered by folks without access to a PAR meter, how about a position of "measuring with a tool is better than guessing" instead? :) Just a suggestion.

Anyone interested would do well to google "dana riddle lux" and read the links that come up. The "Tips On Taking Light Measurements" link I posted earlier was just the tip of the iceberg. :)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I just borrowed an apogee par meter from my lfs. Not exactly sure what I'm doing with it but is gave me a bit of an idea what I'm getting a different depths in the tank and around my aqua scape.
I'm new to the hobby and have only a 29gal marineland tank. 12x30x18" deep. My light s are 185 maxspect razor the measurements i took were 84%on both channels . Here is what I was able to map...can anyone tell me if this is too much or too little for a mixed reef tank?

Yea those measurements are a bit all over the place aren't they.
It does look like you could definitely raise the light up to get better spread.
If it's kinda averaged though then yes a bit too Much fore a true mixed reef but not by much. You can grow some decent sps in spots in the tank. Shrooms might be mad though.

Two thoughts. Do a par map like you'd see on the net with a FTS pic of the tank. It'll help visualize the thank set up lighting wise.
Use different colors for distances away from the front. I.e. Black blue red.

You could use a lux meter to test the intensity over the top of the tank to check for low spots. It actually works better than a par meter in that respect. You can get a lux meter w a waterproof head or put the lux meter in a ziplock bag and test again.
Lux is intensity only. Par is intensity AND color. So a lux will find intensity blow spots

If you borrow the par meter again you can set it next to the par meter and create your own lux par conversion based on the color you chose for your light and the intensity in the spot you set the meters

I think 25 to 50 is correct for shrooms and lower light animals. On the bottom.
that's IME so please do your research. I look at par charts on google images and look at the animals in those par ranges.

So if you averaged 250 par at the top and 35ish on the bottom that's low light.
150 ish on the bottom and 700 or better on the top your in acro territory. Fwiw. That's about 40,000 lux. That'the range my tank runs. And I have grumpy lil shrooms.

Edit. I have a standard 55g and it's a pretty even 40000 l across the top with little to no drop off along the edges. That kind of good spread and coverage is important. It's t5 mh spread.
That kind of spread is what stops shadowing.

 

[NanaReefer]

Yes the Seneye is worth is. Even just for the light meter you cannot beat the price.

 

[jamesbog283]

Yea those measurements are a bit all over the place aren't they.
It does look like you could definitely raise the light up to get better spread.
If it's kinda averaged though then yes a bit too Much fore a true mixed reef but not by much. You can grow some decent sps in spots in the tank. Shrooms might be mad though.

Two thoughts. Do a par map like you'd see on the net with a FTS pic of the tank. It'll help visualize the thank set up lighting wise.
Use different colors for distances away from the front. I.e. Black blue red.

You could use a lux meter to test the intensity over the top of the tank to check for low spots. It actually works better than a par meter in that respect. You can get a lux meter w a waterproof head or put the lux meter in a ziplock bag and test again.
Lux is intensity only. Par is intensity AND color. So a lux will find intensity blow spots

If you borrow the par meter again you can set it next to the par meter and create your own lux par conversion based on the color you chose for your light and the intensity in the spot you set the meters

I think 25 to 50 is correct for shrooms and lower light animals. On the bottom.
that's IME so please do your research. I look at par charts on google images and look at the animals in those par ranges.

So if you averaged 250 par at the top and 35ish on the bottom that's low light.
150 ish on the bottom and 700 or better on the top your in acro territory. Fwiw. That's about 40,000 lux. That'the range my tank runs. And I have grumpy lil shrooms.

Edit. I have a standard 55g and it's a pretty even 40000 l across the top with little to no drop off along the edges. That kind of good spread and coverage is important. It's t5 mh spread.
That kind of spread is what stops shadowing.

I will borrow it again. The lower #'s on the left side of the tank is due to my poor math skills and I didn't center the light properly over the tank. I should probably redo that.