Should a Propagated coral cost more?

[reef-nut]

No, with todays economy, high prices is going to kill this hobby. Don't be greedy.

 

[fishes2889]

With todays economy most business's need to be a little greedy to make a living, but selling out of a personal collection should not be priced so high...IMO

 

[Reef Pets]

I'm talking a more commercial perspective. They run business's and therefore they strictly want to make profit. So presence of s high power bill drives up the price. Additives are needed by corals, for example calcium for sps, lps or iodine for ricordea or zoanthid growth. So you need to add these to keep up with the corals and therefore thats money spent and invested into the corals. Plus another thing to add is disease eradication. All the aquacultured pieces i have ever received have been disease free. Take times and money for the vendors and small time propagators to remove them from their system.

Basically i don't mind paying a little more for an aquacultured peice rather than a wild one. They have taken the time to frag, mount and take care of it until it's mounted in your tank.

I agree with Steven 100 percent. A tank raised/propagated takes time, risk and additional money. The cost to propagate starts when you have to purchase a dremel, diamond blade and so on. The risk of cutting the coral and the coral not making it throught the propagation. And more cost in the final staged of frag plug, chemicals and real estate in your tank.
Thats the cost of propagation... The process of selling wild caught coral is that you buy it and if you pass it on, you sell it. No additional cost for fragging equipment or risk of cutting it.

 

[returnofsid]

When I first saw this poll, I almost just voted, without commenting. Then I read all 10 pages..lol. It didn't change my vote, but I'd like to give my reasons...and maybe a little rant, while I'm at it.

I vote "yes." Propogated or Tank Raised corals do have a higher survival rate, for the most part. They've adapted to unnatural lighting, unnatural flow and unnatural water conditions. They're more disease resistant and less likely to have pests. However, proper QT techniques can take care of the pest problem. I also agree that the more propogation is done in the hobby, the less stress is put on natural reefs. So, I vote "yes" I'd be willing to pay more for "aqua cultured" "propogated" corals....but not much more.
I'll add that I believe there's a difference between Hobby Propogation and Business Propogation.
In our hobby, eventually, most of us decide to frag and trade corals with fellow hobbyists. We even decide to frag and sell corals to fellow hobbyists. I've done it, most of us have done it. I don't do it to make a profit at all. I do plan on setting up a strictly "frag tank" here real soon. Not to make a profit, but to add an additional aspect to this hobby that I love. I don't mind if I do make some money at it...but that's not my ambition. I'm not going to keep it going forever if I loose money at it either. I typically give away frags. If I sell frags, they're usually $5.00-$10.00 ea and most are surprised at the size....in a good way...lol. Most of the frags I sell are typical and common SPS or LPS frags. I've only recently gotten into some of the more expensive corals and purchased frags of my own. Eventually, I'll probably sell some of those as frags. I'll probably sell them for $15.00 - $20.00. Although, by the time they're large enough to frag, they may not be such a "fad," and I may end up giving them away...lol.

My thoughts on Business Propogation....If there's enough of a market to support this, why not? Don't we all wish we had jobs we enjoyed? I know if I were able to make a profit doing something I love and got to be my own boss, I'd be much happier than I am now...lol.
That being said, I also feel that there's A LOT of "price gouging" going on. Take the popularity and extremely high price of Acans right now. Acans are some of the most commonly harvested wild corals. A few years ago, a lot of LFS would GIVE AWAY Acans as an incentive to get people into their stores to purchase "Nicer" corals. Now there's a few wholesale sellers of Acans who are "setting" the prices very high. Unfortunately, there are only a few wholesalers of Acans, as they aren't collected in a wide range of areas.....yet. They used to be....but they weren't worth collecting...lol. Then there's a group of sellers on E-Bay who regularly bid on eachother's Acans in order to drive UP the price. Have you noticed, lately, how often E-Bay Acan auctions are made "private?" Ever wonder why? Now you know one of the reasons. Then there's also the very unethical and illegal practice of Acans being harvested in illegal areas, sent to legal harvest areas and sold from those areas. I've seen LOTS of Acans for sale, being advertised as Non Indo. This practice of "poaching" has really become a problem with Acans lately. In fact, I recently read a great article written by Eric Borenman AND Anthony Calfo that really is an eye opener. Here it is... http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/ebac/index.php I just haven't figured out why so many are willing to pay these high prices. Maybe they truly believe these corals are "rare" as advertised.
Being as how this forum is fairly heavy in the Zoanthid collectors, I'll probably step on some toes here...but I believe this happens a lot with Zoanthids as well...due to them being one of the newest "fads." I mean, come on...how "rare" are any Zoanthids? IMO, not rare at all. Yet I still see prices in the double digits for a single polyp!!!
Okay, there's my reasons for voting "yes" and there's my rather long winded RANT. Sorry all!!

 

[AquaWorldPSC]

Wait do you mean Aquaculture and Mariculture vs Wild OR
Aquaculture vs Mariculture and Wild?

 

[AlexStinson]

I can grow out the coals in my tank for alot less than I can go to fiji and get them.


I think aquacultured corals take alot less resources and work to produce, and should thus cost less. If we actually supplied the people of these island nations fair wages for collecting corals then wild caught would surely be much more expensive.

 

[er1c.the.reefer]

yes, it would be cheaper for any individual hobbyist to grow their corals than to go out and harvest them.

but if you think about it on the walmart scale, the shear volume of wild caught/maricultured corals imported are cheaper in the long term because of the fact there's minimal risk and maintenance involved (e.g. no water changes, no lighting, no supplements, etc.) as for wages for these divers, fair wages is subjective. what is little to us may be a month's worth of pay for them.

 

[Russellaqua]

Aquacultured corals certainly warrant a higher price. They tend to be hardier than wild specimens, especially any SPS. Add in running lighting, filtration, powerheads, supplements to get more growth, and food for the corals you can easily rack up a power bill measured in kilowatts for each hour the system runs. For LPS it can take a long long time to get a piece large enough to frag and heal up for sale. Softies and SPS grow so fast that culturing adds some cost, but often people are spending money on the color of the piece. Look at some of the prices of zoos. They grow like wildfire but some are $20/polyp.

 

[bamachamp92]

someone who does this for a living also has to absorb the cost of any corals that die while growing out.

 

[droblack]

Governments in the countries allowing export of wild coral colonies should tax them at a much higher rate and use those funds for conservation and research efforts. This would drive the cost up and perhaps encourage more people to buy aquaculture. If you want to buy something that is rare and comes out of the ocean halfway across the world, then you should pay more than if you get it from the guy in your reefclub or at your lfs (aquaculture). Think of all the energy and resources that go into boxing and shipping a coral multiple times, not to mention the dive and collection operation itself. Aquaculture has to be more economical and efficient, and if not, then we are not doing things right.

 

[Psychographic]

I'm going to say no for a couple of reasons,

One, as I've said before, this hobby is starting to be driven by greed.

Two, to say it costs more to raise them is BS to an extent, if you grow out a colony and are able to keep a supply of frags, you are no longer paying for the initial colony.

Three, salt, energy consumption and time are all consuming money, if you are a business, you write this off on your taxes, if you are a hobbiest, you are doing it for yourself because you enjoy doing it, so you would have these costs anyway.

I find it funny how everyone wants to act so environmentally consientious (sp?), but rather than keep the price at or yes even a bit below the wild prices, to entice people to purchase aquacultured, feel that they need to make a buck instead.

Four, you have no guarentee that any coral is going to hold it's color, wild or aquacultured.

 

[ecotoxlady]

I have to yes to this one because a propogated coral is likely to be healthier and more accustomed to life in our aquariums. It would be nice for them to not be too much more expensive only to encourage people to choose propogated over wild collected but that is dependent on the rate at which the coral grows and how easy they are to prepare for fragging, etc.

 

[ecotoxlady]

Governments in the countries allowing export of wild coral colonies should tax them at a much higher rate and use those funds for conservation and research efforts. This would drive the cost up and perhaps encourage more people to buy aquaculture. If you want to buy something that is rare and comes out of the ocean halfway across the world, then you should pay more than if you get it from the guy in your reefclub or at your lfs (aquaculture). Think of all the energy and resources that go into boxing and shipping a coral multiple times, not to mention the dive and collection operation itself. Aquaculture has to be more economical and efficient, and if not, then we are not doing things right.

That is a very good point! I would certainly like to see this being the case but realistically think that the cost of aquacultured would also shoot up if this were to occur.

 

[Psychographic]

That is a very good point! I would certainly like to see this being the case but realistically think that the cost of aquacultured would also shoot up if this were to occur.

There is no reason this should drive the prices of aquacultured pieces up.

Could you explain why you think this would happen?

 

[roshi719]

There is no reason this should drive the prices of aquacultured pieces up.

Could you explain why you think this would happen?

Supply and demand. If Wild corals become more expensive, demand for aquacultured will go up, thus driving up their prices as well. Just look at anything mass produced. We have all of this robotic and computerized production, and yet I can't think of one thing that I buy that ever goes down in price over time.

 

[flricordia]

I have to yes to this one because a propogated coral is likely to be healthier and more accustomed to life in our aquariums. It would be nice for them to not be too much more expensive only to encourage people to choose propogated over wild collected but that is dependent on the rate at which the coral grows and how easy they are to prepare for fragging, etc.

Agree

 

[Ladipyg]

I have seriously considered setting up a greenhouse with a couple of runways to get into propogating corals full time after I retire...but times are really tight now for most hobbyists...we're busy trying to deal with the economy and keep our head above water. For those in this business, it's tough...I see so many LFS going under lately. Remember the cost of those wild corals includes shipping from 1/2 way around the world. That is figured into the price..so it's a push..they should sell for around the same but I'd be willing to pay a little more for "home grown".

 

[mevstheworld]

I'm going to say no for a couple of reasons,

One, as I've said before, this hobby is starting to be driven by greed.

Two, to say it costs more to raise them is BS to an extent, if you grow out a colony and are able to keep a supply of frags, you are no longer paying for the initial colony.

Three, salt, energy consumption and time are all consuming money, if you are a business, you write this off on your taxes, if you are a hobbiest, you are doing it for yourself because you enjoy doing it, so you would have these costs anyway.

I find it funny how everyone wants to act so environmentally conscientious (sp?), but rather than keep the price at or yes even a bit below the wild prices, to entice people to purchase aquacultured, feel that they need to make a buck instead.

Four, you have no guarantee that any coral is going to hold it's color, wild or aquacultured.

Well said. That's the problem with the majority of the planet, take take take take. Never returning. If the homegrown varieties were cheaper, there would be less demand on natural coral reefs. It's kinda like recycling, better for human and animal kind. my $.02

 

[reefboy]

you obviously you have no clue what it cost's on a large scale to grow corals so please don't talk like you do.Sure some things grow fast but most people want the hard to get stuff that usually grows slow and demands twice the resources to get it out plus your still competing with wild caught stuff so unless your growing on a large scale invested the money and are trying to make part of your living at it I really don't think you should be posting.

 

[Ladipyg]

you obviously you have no clue what it cost's on a large scale to grow corals so please don't talk like you do.Sure some things grow fast but most people want the hard to get stuff that usually grows slow and demands twice the resources to get it out plus your still competing with wild caught stuff so unless your growing on a large scale invested the money and are trying to make part of your living at it I really don't think you should be posting.

Well, people post here to learn as part of the process. Posting something contrary to what we think opens up new avenues of discussion. All that works to make a better informed seller and buyer. I think that many of us don't have a true idea of what it takes to run a business like this...anymore than someone watching "Rescue Me" or "The Shield" understands what being a fireman or police officer is really like. Everytime I watch the chase scene from the French Connection the only thing I can think of is "I'd be writing reports for months!". :wink:

I, for one, would LOVE to see someone in the business start a thread where they give a rough out line of what it takes to get a coral into this country. Not so detailed that you'd give away secrets, but informative.