Should a Propagated coral cost more?
- Thread starter Randy
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jessiesgrrl
Hasslehoff is NOT Hot!
Randy, I would fix it by doing what reef farmers does with a few adjustments- instead of using your own real estate and driving the cost up as they grow out, I would contract with hobbyists where possible to buy frags from. Avoid the egos as well, to keep costs down even further. As long as people know what you are going to do with them, I have no problem with that.
Also, in order to save the ocean reefs, don't all hobbyists have an increased amount of responsibility to get aquaculture going in this hobby? The frags are much more durable and acclimated to tank life, and it would lessen the impact of collection in the long run.
:D
Laurie
Also, in order to save the ocean reefs, don't all hobbyists have an increased amount of responsibility to get aquaculture going in this hobby? The frags are much more durable and acclimated to tank life, and it would lessen the impact of collection in the long run.
:D
Laurie
Randy
Zoa Farmer
You know thats not abad idea!! I think I will try to start something like a frag farmers site.I need to check to see if anyone would like to do this and go from there.I know alot of people here are into propagation.
VanGogh121
Melba Toast
The eco conscious thing to do would be to reduce the price. We would like to see the hobby go away from stipping the reef.
In addition after selling the first or second frag I would have most likely recouped the cost of the origional purchase. The only cost incured are Utilities and additives. I'm in the hobby for enjoyment thow...
If I was a buisnessman I think it would be a who different story. I would try to extort as much money as possible from each sale. I would sell the benefites of whatever I'm selling. The easiest sell would be, " This propagated coral will be more Hardy than the wild caught and is more Eco ethical."
Anyone want to buy some propagated corals?:D
In addition after selling the first or second frag I would have most likely recouped the cost of the origional purchase. The only cost incured are Utilities and additives. I'm in the hobby for enjoyment thow...
If I was a buisnessman I think it would be a who different story. I would try to extort as much money as possible from each sale. I would sell the benefites of whatever I'm selling. The easiest sell would be, " This propagated coral will be more Hardy than the wild caught and is more Eco ethical."
Anyone want to buy some propagated corals?:D
This is why so many captive farmers have went belly up over the last 20 years. One thing that has to change and change in a large why is the ability of the hobbyist to want to purchase a captive raised coral or fish. I for one would, I also trade more then I buy. Part of the problem is that these farms that went belly up started way to soon before the hobby itself was ready and didn't at the time have the conscientious mind to buy captive raised livestock. It was and for the most part still is all about "how do I get the most for my money" mentality.
But as we hear and read that these reefs are under extreme pressure and how some of the tactics of these collectors are effecting the reefs with a cut and burn mentality we as a group have the power really to effect change. Once the change takes place and captive raised livestock becomes and takes hold a market share you will see the price come down. When ORA first started selling the fish they had to have a higher price because each fish had to make up for the cost that went into creating the fish in a captive setting in the first place and each fish sold had to make up the cost of those that didn't sell.
Over the last 10 years there has been a very large drop in captive fish prices compared to 10-15 years ago. Why? Because now there is a bit larger market and with the increase of the market for these fish and also corals now, they can spread the cost out over a larger part of the product.
If I had had a farm 15 years ago and I sat down to figure what I would have to sell to make not just a profit, but what comes first is how do I cover overhead first and foremost I would have went out of business as well because of the price of the wild caught product and the purchasing habits of the consumer. Overhead has to get covered first cause if it don't you won't be in business for long and have a large sum of debt that is owed well after you close shop.
This is one reason why there have been sites that will sell wild caught and captive raised corals and fish, while I can sell the wild caught for cheaper that will cover the overhead, while offering captive raised fish and coral to those that want to purchase these products. In the end they will both cover overhead but it is much easier still to this day to sell a wild caught coral and fish because it is still much cheaper because of the market share that the consumer has for wild caught.
But like I said there will come a day when the only reason to get wild caught will be to get a new strain of fish or coral for propagation purposes.
But as we hear and read that these reefs are under extreme pressure and how some of the tactics of these collectors are effecting the reefs with a cut and burn mentality we as a group have the power really to effect change. Once the change takes place and captive raised livestock becomes and takes hold a market share you will see the price come down. When ORA first started selling the fish they had to have a higher price because each fish had to make up for the cost that went into creating the fish in a captive setting in the first place and each fish sold had to make up the cost of those that didn't sell.
Over the last 10 years there has been a very large drop in captive fish prices compared to 10-15 years ago. Why? Because now there is a bit larger market and with the increase of the market for these fish and also corals now, they can spread the cost out over a larger part of the product.
If I had had a farm 15 years ago and I sat down to figure what I would have to sell to make not just a profit, but what comes first is how do I cover overhead first and foremost I would have went out of business as well because of the price of the wild caught product and the purchasing habits of the consumer. Overhead has to get covered first cause if it don't you won't be in business for long and have a large sum of debt that is owed well after you close shop.
This is one reason why there have been sites that will sell wild caught and captive raised corals and fish, while I can sell the wild caught for cheaper that will cover the overhead, while offering captive raised fish and coral to those that want to purchase these products. In the end they will both cover overhead but it is much easier still to this day to sell a wild caught coral and fish because it is still much cheaper because of the market share that the consumer has for wild caught.
But like I said there will come a day when the only reason to get wild caught will be to get a new strain of fish or coral for propagation purposes.
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I truly believe in time aquacultured corals will cost less than wild corals. I believe that aquacultured corals will be sold in colony sizes and wild corals will be sold as fragments. I believe the price structure will change the more cities permits get reduced. The cost to import wild corals will only get more expensive and the knowledge the hobby is gaining will make it even easier to grow out aquacultured corals. Lighting will continue to improve, equipment will continue getting better. We will surpass mother nature in our ability to raise livestock in captivity over growing it in the wild.
I believe in five years or less the only people even having access to wild corals will be businesses that specialize in aquaculture. Those few new corals will continue to sell for outrageous prices. And enough will come into the country to keep us interested but aquacultured corals will make up about 80% of the market. The hobby will become less mainstream as even the aquacultured corals will be expensive. But not as much as wild collected corals.
I believe in five years or less the only people even having access to wild corals will be businesses that specialize in aquaculture. Those few new corals will continue to sell for outrageous prices. And enough will come into the country to keep us interested but aquacultured corals will make up about 80% of the market. The hobby will become less mainstream as even the aquacultured corals will be expensive. But not as much as wild collected corals.
Brandon
Active Member
I voted yes because the thought of just buying something stripped from the ocean, shipped to wholesalers, (some of which dont make it), then to the LFS seems a little....cruel perhaps?
I mean, i know im a little young to understand how everything is ran, but it doesnt seem fine to just pull stuff out, have like half die, and then have the others just waiting to be sold.....
I think aquaculture is better because it has sooo many more benefits than wild caught. Less pests, more suited for aquarias. Things like that, plus, im sure that we have found most of the corals.....not too many new stuff coming in, so we can just prop what we have now, and just slowly wean ourselves off the ocean :p
I mean, i know im a little young to understand how everything is ran, but it doesnt seem fine to just pull stuff out, have like half die, and then have the others just waiting to be sold.....
I think aquaculture is better because it has sooo many more benefits than wild caught. Less pests, more suited for aquarias. Things like that, plus, im sure that we have found most of the corals.....not too many new stuff coming in, so we can just prop what we have now, and just slowly wean ourselves off the ocean :p
I skimmed through this thread and thought about a few things...
All wild and "commercially farmed" corals can carry and spread coral parasites. It can take a huge amount of time and effort by the hobbyist to eradicate coral pests (like flatworms, red bugs, etc...). And by commercially farmed I mean most farms that are outside of the US. They are uninformed about the latest treatment techniques and because of their scale and natural predators, they suffer little consequence of coral parasites....until their corals get to our tanks.
If you disregard the survivability of wild vs farmed frags in aquaria...you are left with the question: Which is better for the enviroment? Both coral, fish collection and pressures from global warming can harm reefs. Which factor will harm reefs most in this decade?
I believe global warming will affect coral reef ecosystems the most rapidly out of all habitats. As hobbyists we can only hope that as coral reefs are increasingly destroyed that the collection limitations (via CITES) are raised to support farming. This may be the only way to save coral species/color morphs from total extinction. There probably already is a point at which global warming harm exceeds any possible damage from wild coral collection.
Commercial farming and home propagation is the way of the future and we are headed the right direction! Hopefully wild stock can continue to help our efforts with obtaining new and unique corals for propagation.
Unfortunatly, what will probably happen is mass die-off of the most productive reefs, followed by total elimination of all coral collection.
All wild and "commercially farmed" corals can carry and spread coral parasites. It can take a huge amount of time and effort by the hobbyist to eradicate coral pests (like flatworms, red bugs, etc...). And by commercially farmed I mean most farms that are outside of the US. They are uninformed about the latest treatment techniques and because of their scale and natural predators, they suffer little consequence of coral parasites....until their corals get to our tanks.
If you disregard the survivability of wild vs farmed frags in aquaria...you are left with the question: Which is better for the enviroment? Both coral, fish collection and pressures from global warming can harm reefs. Which factor will harm reefs most in this decade?
I believe global warming will affect coral reef ecosystems the most rapidly out of all habitats. As hobbyists we can only hope that as coral reefs are increasingly destroyed that the collection limitations (via CITES) are raised to support farming. This may be the only way to save coral species/color morphs from total extinction. There probably already is a point at which global warming harm exceeds any possible damage from wild coral collection.
Commercial farming and home propagation is the way of the future and we are headed the right direction! Hopefully wild stock can continue to help our efforts with obtaining new and unique corals for propagation.
Unfortunatly, what will probably happen is mass die-off of the most productive reefs, followed by total elimination of all coral collection.
I see the price of some of these African, Carribbean zoos higher than propagated. Sellers get them by the sack fulls ran dump out on a table grab a hammer and frag them up throw in a tank and sell the one's that open. I would think that if you bought a colony of just say 150-200 polyps sold them for 20 a polyp somebody is making money. with ag if you go buy 50 polyps at 20 a polyp how can you speck too make money. I remember back when the naming thing started. it used to be just to like a ID thing. now look at Ebay and you will see dumbasses on there selling wild zoos with a AG are {rare}/ Le name. YOU never never see anybody on there selling just say nuks, pd's, geddons, ppe's for wild zoos.
organism
Active Member
Hopkins
Team Awesome
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