Shrinking Nems - Help w/ Diagnosis & Action Plan

[archipelago]

Photos of nems at very bottom of post.

My background: 15 years reefkeeping and 33 years total saltwater aquarium experience. I consider myself a semi-advanced aquarist (but always learning) with a modest experience in keeping anemones (LTA + BTA mostly). I'd really like to keep feedback here corralled to advanced anemone keepers and those who have actually experienced a similar issue.

Affected Anemones: 4 x Bubble Tipped Anemones ( if it matters - 2 x Colorado Sunbursts, 1 x Nexus Burst, 1 x Holy Grail). CSB have been in tank for ~ 2 years. Nexus + HG added to tank ~ 90 days ago. There are no other anemones in the tank.

Problem/Symptoms: Over the past 2 weeks all anemones have lost considerable color and size, and continue to lose color and size. 2 x CSB have protruding mouths/stomachs. The others do not. Prior to this issue, the CSB's were ~ 4-5 inches in diameter when fully inflated, colorful, responsive, sticky, eating. NB + HG ~ 2.0-2.5 inches in diameter fully inflated, responsive, sticky, but never really 'thriving'. Currently CSBs are ~ 2.5 inches in diameter in photos and NB+HG are ~ 1.0 inch.

Aquarium Details: Barebottom 150 gal SPS Reef, appx 1.5 years old. Just started adding SPS and all are colorful, healthy. Alk is steady ~ 8.0 dKH (Hanna) and PO4 currently ~ 0.04 ppm (Hanna ULR). 'Full Spectrum' (Radion Pros, all channels 100%) lighting - anemones receiving ~ 300 ish PAR. Dosing w/ A4R to maintain Alkalinty. Skimmer (currently not running), filter sock, passive GAC use. Don't know if it's important but previously I have used Trisodium Phosphate to maintain detectable PO4 but the anemones really seem to dislike it. Any time I dosed it previously, the anemones would shrink up.

Possible Factors + Timeline:
- 90 days: Added Holy Grail and Nexus Burst to Aquarium
- 14 days: Dosed Interceptor prophylactically at 23 mg / 75 gal concentration. Turned off skimmer. Removed GAC.
- 13 days: Alk increase 8.0 -> 9.6 + PO4 decrease from 0.04 -> 0.00 (both, overnight). Took immediate action by adjusting A4R dosing and using ReefRoids (dosed directly into filter sock) to increase PO4. 5 out of the 60 or-so corals exhibiting paleness and retracted polyps. All other corals unaffected. Returned skimmer to service, added 1/4 cup 0.8 ROX carbon. Decreased lighting intensity from 75% -> 70%
- 12 days: Dinos appear (have not confirmed ID, but can if needed to help diagnose). Continue to dose ReefRoids.
- 11 days: Take skimmer off-line to aid in increasing PO4.
- 10 days: Alk back to 8.0 (demand continues to increase, almost daily) and PO4 back to ~ 0.04.
Today: Continue to dose ReefRoids to maintain PO4 above 0.03. Skimmer still off-line. Dinos still maintain a moderate presence but are (very) slowly going away. The Dinos are bad enough were I feel I need to gently 'turkey baste' the bases of some corals a couple times a day but no major irritation or die-off due to being overwhelmed by them.

My gut tells me a bacterial issue (exacerbated increased PO4 and PO4 dosing) and initial stress from the Alk increase, PO4 decrease, and possibly the Interceptor treatment itself. But, I didn't want to jump right into Cipro without getting feedback from some pro's first. I have access to a QT if necessary. I'd be grateful ( @OrionN and others w/ similar experience) if you would be willing to share your thoughts and recommendations on both diagnosis and treatment.

Thanks in advance.

Photos As Of This Evening: (colors in photos are close to actual)

2 x Colorado Sunbursts

Nexus Burst (Left) and Holy Grail (Right)

 

[Rocks reef]

I'm leaning towards the rapids alk and PO4 changes.
Also, it is known that some anemones do not play well with others. There is chemical warfare involved even though they are all "technically" BTA. I think the HG is adding to the problem.

 

[OrionN]

Multiple factors as cause. Include all the meds and instability of the tank.
Try your best to get a stable tank, even if it mean a little dino, cyano and not 100% pristine tank.
Your animals, not just your anemones will do better.

 

[archipelago]

I'm leaning towards the rapids alk and PO4 changes.
Also, it is known that some anemones do not play well with others. There is chemical warfare involved even though they are all "technically" BTA. I think the HG is adding to the problem.

Thanks @Rocks reef - I considered chemical warfare (although admittedly I feel confused regarding bacterial vs chemical 'warefare' between BTA's); I've seen both referenced in threads but without citation or explanation. Is there a way to combat either one? No problem if I just need to separate them.

Multiple factors as cause. Include all the meds and instability of the tank.
Try your best to get a stable tank, even if it mean a little dino, cyano and not 100% pristine tank.
Your animals, not just your anemones will do better.

Thanks for taking the time to look and confirm @OrionN. Interestingly, I have had success with BTA's even when my systems were not mature enough for SPS, and in general, the nems seemed to be more resilient than SPS with respect to parameter swings. Perhaps the medications 'pushed them over the edge' exacerbating what might have been more 'tolerable' changes in Alk and PO4.

I will work on keeping things stable over the next weeks (well I mean, that's my goal with the SPS anyway ). I'm testing Alk and PO4 daily and NO3 once or twice a week. I'll report back with parameters and changes with the nems.

Again, thanks to the both of you for taking the time to review my post and offer your thoughts and recommendations. Will continue to monitor closely, and post progress and outcomes here.

 

[BryanM]

That is a big list of changes, I've gone thru some larger swings without much fanfare on my end, but I'm very concerned with zero phos, which is why you've likely got dinos.

Some dinos are toxic.... And this is the direction I'd be looking. Only reliable way to ID is with a scope. My toxic dinos killed some things for sure, including my favorite urchin.

If the dinos go in to the water column at night then they'd at least be similar to mine, and MIGHT be toxic. But that's also good news because they can be treated with UV as well. I also manually vacuumed through a filter sock so I could re-use the vacuumed water (water changes are not usually advised when dealing with dinos).

 

[dvgyfresh]

Too many changes is my guess with alkalinity / phosphate. Nems love stability above all else even if the stable numbers are not ideal , be sure to change out carbon monthly when mixing nems would also be my advice . Slow down on changes 1dkh change in a day will make nems mad along with fast phosphate changes

 

[archipelago]

That is a big list of changes, I've gone thru some larger swings without much fanfare on my end, but I'm very concerned with zero phos, which is why you've likely got dinos.

Agreed, but > 0 PO4 for a while now. Yes, almost always see these pop up when I hit true 0 (which I believe I did with the Interceptor treatment). Combined with the wipeout of pods, here we are.

Some dinos are toxic.... And this is the direction I'd be looking. Only reliable way to ID is with a scope. My toxic dinos killed some things for sure, including my favorite urchin.

If the dinos go in to the water column at night then they'd at least be similar to mine, and MIGHT be toxic. But that's also good news because they can be treated with UV as well. I also manually vacuumed through a filter sock so I could re-use the vacuumed water (water changes are not usually advised when dealing with dinos).

Pulled a small sample tonight and as expected; Ostreopsis is the culprit. Highly toxic per the ID 'guide'. However, the guide also says that these release into the water column at night, but when I check after lights off - there are still clearly strands on the rock and other surfaces. I've got a 50 watt (or something like that) unused in the garage - i'll get it put together and start running it full time.

Too many changes is my guess with alkalinity / phosphate. Nems love stability above all else even if the stable numbers are not ideal

Agreed, although my nems have gone through much larger swings in Alk/PO4 before without any issue. I'm fairly certain at this point that a combo Interceptor + Dino toxicity are the primary culprits. I may move all nems to a different tank in my lab ( some Cyano but is Dino-free, stable, PO4 ~ 0.12 ppm and ~ 20 ppm NO3). I know I'd be breaking the stability 'rule' but a single step change I think is much better than ongoing exposure to the Dinos.

be sure to change out carbon monthly

Doing a 1/4 cup weekly right now.

Slow down on changes 1dkh change in a day will make nems mad along with fast phosphate changes

Daily changes now are much less than 1 dKH so covered there as well.

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback guys.

 

[BryanM]

water column UV win, I hope this resolves itself "reasonably" quickly for you.

I was sad that I also had toxic dinos, and they did take some things out, but overall I persevered.

 

[dvgyfresh]

Any update