SICK TANK

[Zeezah]

I have a newly set up 30 gal that started with 4 Damsels (one domino and 3 smaller ones that were white with black spines). Our Domino was pretty aggressive and at first was fine with the other three but after a day or so started harassing them. I noticed that one of the little damsels had a bulging eye but no visible injury( thought he may have sustained it while fleeing the Domino). We have a second tank that is larger with aggressive fish, we I thought may be a better environment for the Domino. We tried that and decided it was not a good fit. We pulled the Domino and put it back. Gave it a day or so then noticed that one of the little damsels had what looked like little bubbles on it which made me think it maybe ICK. I went to the pet store and was advised that they have no chemical treatment for ICK...... Uh okay. They did recommend Artemiss Microbe-Lift Natural Expellant for Bacterial Diseases. Treated for two days only to discover that all of the fish in the tank had the same small bubble like things on them and were "blushing" my Domino which was normally jet black was so pale I mistook him for one of the little damsels which was white, the little damsels did display color changes but so mild they were still almost the same color (but it looked like they had bruising on their sides). They would all go back to their original colors. I also purchased a cleaner shrimp to deal with the ICK (which my Domino LOVED) but didn't acclimate properly and it died.... The Domino seemed to give up at that point (behavior totally changed, hid didn't eat, etc) the smaller damsels seemed lethargic at this point but were still eating. Did some more GOOGLING and decided it was tail and fin rot. We noticed that the small damsels fins looked frayed and Domino looked rough. So we went back to the pet store and was instructed to do the following. DRAIN THE TANK, 50% Water change, scrub the tank decorations filters and heaters, change the interior filter panels, allow the live rock to dry for 24 HR, bump up the heat, thoroughly sift and rinse the substrate and freshwater dip each fish. We did this all and continued to treat the tank. All 4 fish were dead by the end of the next day.......

A week went by and we continued to treat the tank. We went back to the pet store to discuss the result and asked if it was safe to add more fish now that the tank had gone a week with no sick fish (although we did not re-clean...). They advised that yes it would be.... So we got a Sail-fin Tang and moved over our Niger Trigger (I KNOW THIS TANK IS WAY TO SMALL FOR THESE FISH BUT ITS WHAT WE HAVE FOR NOW WE PLAN TO UPGRADE SOON). The Sail-fin is now showing the same signs of sickness but the Niger is not.... Blushing and bubbles on her but no fraying of the fins or tail although I noticed this morning that the top of her sail is torn... not sure what happened there. We decided to move the Niger because our Wrass (in the other tank) had started to become more aggressive to him and he wasn't eating or swimming about as he normally had. He is now living on the floor of the smaller tank, when we first put him in the Sail-fin was excited she dropped her sail and was swimming around with him. He swam around for about an hour before he picked a spot on the bottom and that's where he has stayed, on the bottom he moves around and his fins are still fluttering as normal but he still isn't eating.......

I would add that the small tank has 5 or 6 Scarlet Hermits and 4 Narcissus and 2 Turbos. Also a Sally Light Foot and a Cleaner or Skunk Shrimp which all survived the first round of sickness.

WHAT HAVE I DONE TO MY POOR FISH AND HOW DO I FIX IT???????????????

I have attached photos of the Sail-fin looking pale or what I have referred to as "blushing" and when she looks darker. But the black spots are new. Please note she has significant scarring around her right eye and down her right side. She also has some around her left eye but not as noticeable. This was how we purchased her, we named her Scarlet or Scar for short.

 

[urban coral farmer]

The fish is probably stressed. Take the thing back to the store until you can get an appropriate tank.

 

[Zeezah]

Thats unhelpful.

 

[Zeezah]

The fish is probably stressed. Take the thing back to the store until you can get an appropriate tank.

Thanks really helpful.

 

[urban coral farmer]

Tank needs to be empty of fish for a while to let the ich run its course also use this time to get appropriate fish.

 

[Zeezah]

So it is ICK? Or what? And how long is a while? A week, two weeks, a month, a year? Why would the size of my tank cause this much stress so quickly? The fish is in a bigger aquarium than what it was in at the pet store. And what about the 4 small fish that we started with, how was tank size a factor there? Did you read the whole thing? Or did you just jump on tank size as the issue? I'm looking for help with what I have now and I can guarantee taking the sailfin back to the pet store will not help, the fish or my tank.

 

[urban coral farmer]

So it is ICK? Or what? And how long is a while? A week, two weeks, a month, a year? Why would the size of my tank cause this much stress so quickly? The fish is in a bigger aquarium than what it was in at the pet store. And what about the 4 small fish that we started with, how was tank size a factor there? Did you read the whole thing? Or did you just jump on tank size as the issue? I'm looking for help with what I have now and I can guarantee taking the sailfin back to the pet store will not help, the fish or my tank.

30-90 days

 

[urban coral farmer]

Remove the fish return to fish store run the tank wait 30-90 days and add new appropriate fish. Small tanks will not help the situation with these fish. I know u want these fish for the furture and hope of a bigger tank but getthe fish when you have said tank. If humans need a basketball court sized cage would you want to be kept in a 6x6 box thats un natural?.

 

[urban coral farmer]

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...23&share_tid=5123&share_fid=1489&share_type=t

 

[sfmacguy]

That Fish also looks to have HLLE, with the open wounds...

 

[SandJ]

The lines on the face and down the side are HLLE, head and lateral line erosion. The only treatment is to keep the fish in the optimal conditions and great diet.

The black spots resemble black ick.

In the picture of the right side of the fish, it looks almost like velvet. This would explain the ripped fins also.

 

[SandJ]

The more I look at the pictures, the more it looks like the fish has velvet and the black spots are scars on the fish (possible to have black ick and velvet at the same time though).
Does the fish have a white, fuzzy appearance? You may have to shine a light and look down the side of the fish.

 

[Mikedawg]

We've all had some "learning experiences" in this hobby. Your tank looks new and one thing immediately comes to mind: given that you thoroughly cleaned your tank recently, it's biological filter (bacteria living on/in the rocks) may not have had time to cycle again. Have you checked your water parameters for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Could be affecting your fish adversely, especially if they are already diseased. And, here's a good pictorial guide to help you zero in on symptoms/disease if you want another reference: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-disease-index-pictorial-guide.285708/#post-3473098
I wouldn't add anything to your tank for awhile in hopes that conditions stabilize and to give you time to treat your fish; in effect your tank should probably become a quarantine tank.
Good luck

 

[Zeezah]

Ok so i agree ive got HLLE in the Tang and velvet in the tank. I want to turn this into a sick tank and treat both with copper and vitamins. But i need to move my shrimp, crabs and snails, will they carry this sickness to a new tank?

 

[ilyad]

Ok so i agree ive got HLLE in the Tang and velvet in the tank. I want to turn this into a sick tank and treat both with copper and vitamins. But i need to move my shrimp, crabs and snails, will they carry this sickness to a new tank?

Most diseases can be transmitted via inverts, or even a tiny bit of tank water, including Ich, Velvet, etc. The only sure way to make sure is to have the tank sits fallow (without fish) for 72 days. That is about as long as most parasitic life cycles are. You can also look into what is called a Tank Transfer Method (or TTM). This allows you to reduce that time frame by a lot but only if you have 2 tanks and follow the instructions to a T. Any variations will not make it work.

All that being said, if available, look for a different local fish store. If they told you that your tank is free of diseases in one week clearly had only wanted to sell you more fish.

As to what you can do right now, I would look to see if you can set up a small tank (maybe a 10 gal) using the old water from the infected tank to put all of your inverts in. Keep the inverts in that tank for 72 days, at which point they would be free of disease. Use this current tank as a quarantine/hospital tank. Personally, I've also found that dipping fish, pulling equipment out of the tank and scrubbing it, all makes it worse as it destabilizes the natural ecoshpere in the tank and stresses the fish too. I wouldn't ever pull and clean the equipment, sand (especially) and rock while the fish are there. You do those thorough cleanings once the fish is cured, and out of the tank. When you have an opportunity to break down everything, clean it, and then restart it again for its cycle - which it will cycle. Dipping fish does work as a good method, but for certain issues. Head over to the Fish Disease subsection of this forum and read how QT tanks are set up, as well as treatment steps of various issues. Dip for appropriate ones only.

PS. If you've transferred any fish, water, equipment, inverts, or anything from the infected tank to the other one, it may very well be contaminated as well. You would have to QT all of those fish as well while the tank sits fallow.... if you want to be 100% certain that all the fish and tanks are pest/disease free.

 

[ilyad]

Maybe @Humblefish and @4FordFamily can help you diagnose the fish you posted or move this discussion to that area of the forum.

FYI, here is the correct area you would want to post this in the future: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-and-diagnosis.771/

 

[Maritimer]

Wow ... you've got a lot going on here.

My first suggestion would be that you resolve, right now, never to darken that petstore's doorway again. There are some great Local Fish Shops out there ... but yours doesn't seem to be one of 'em.

Ideally, you'd want to use the 30-gallon tank as a quarantine, treating for any diseases there, and adding the fish to your display tank only after they've been treated for things like ich, velvet, Brooklynella, flukes and "black ich" (which is really turbellarian worms) and possibly internal parasites. (As you're already aware, the 30 isn't going to be big enough for the fish you've got in it. Our local Public aquarium has some sailfin tangs that look like dinnerplates when they raise their fins. Those guys get big!) Below, I'll link an article by @Brew12 on setting up a QT - easy to read, and spot-on:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/beginners-guide-to-acclimation-and-quarantine.304980/#post-3736443

You'll note that your biological filter (bacteria that remove ammonia from the water, converting it to less toxic nitrite and even less toxic nitrate) may not be very well established in such a new tank. You can add some Dr. Tim's One-And-Only or Bio-Spira bacteria to help it along, but it really takes time - and a good place for the bacteria to colonize - to bring that aspect of your filtration up to speed. Calcium carbonate "liverock" is porous, and a great structure for bacteria to move into - resin aquarium decor, such as that Mayan head, castle tower or Triceratops skull ... not so much.

Velvet is a nasty parasite - it's a dinoflagellate, reproduces very quickly, and can wipe a tank in short order. @Humblefish, our local fish doctor, has a terrific article on it here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499399 You'll want copper or Chloroqine Phosphate (CP) to treat velvet.

"Black ich" (turbellarian worms) is relatively less problematic. Since it's a worm, it generally responds well to Praziquantel, the active ingredient in Prazi-Pro and one of the active ingredients in API's "General Cure" product.

Head & Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE) is the least of Scarlet's worries right now, even though it gave her the name. Excellent water conditions, minimal to no carbon dust from Granular Activated Carbon (GAC), and a nutritious and balanced diet should bring some relief - though she may never be perfect.

I'm going to leave you with one more article to read, on going "fallow" or fishless. Invertebrates can transfer some fish diseases, but the diseases can't survive on the inverts, long-term - they _require_ fish to complete their lifecycles. If you have to go "fallow", leaving the inverts in the display is just fine - the treatments for most fish diseases and parasites aren't very good for invertebrates (as in, the treatments for fish diseases will kill the inverts) anyway. The required "fallow period" for Brooklynella and velvet is six weeks, but to cover ich as well, most folks will recommend 76 days.
"Going Fallow" by Humblefish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/#post-2183025

~Bruce, who can move this thread to the Disease forum, if you'd like . . .

 

[Brew12]

Let me start by saying that I am sorry you are going through this. It is a very frustrating situation. Since Bruce has already given you great advice, I won't add to much to that. I will say that I don't see signs of Velvet, but I can't rule it out. I think stress and black ich are the two main issues.

Why would the size of my tank cause this much stress so quickly? The fish is in a bigger aquarium than what it was in at the pet store. And what about the 4 small fish that we started with, how was tank size a factor there?

I understand your confusion here but I agree that the small tank is a triggering factor. First, most fish stores are very careful with how they match up fish. A healthy fish can typically handle a single stressor such as a small tank. If that fish in too small of a tank is coupled with fish that are also aggressive that becomes two stressors. Many fish will have their immunity break down at this point. This allows parasites to multiply quickly and can overwhelm other fish that they share water with. Fish behaviors can also change when in QT systems. Many LFS's keep schools of chromis in a small tank in their systems. They rely on the stress that the fish has in QT to do this. If you buy 7 chromis and put them in your DT odds are they will kill each other off 1 by 1 until they are all dead.

Another factor could be the conditions your LFS keeps their fish in. Many LFS keep their salinity below 1.020 which can slow parasite growth and hide symptoms. They may even run low levels of copper in their system to keep parasite levels lower. Unless you know the practices your LFS uses you cannot rule this out.

One more thought on tank size, and that it has more to do with the species of fish than the size of the fish. A 7" Foxface will do much better in a 90g system than a 3" Hippo tang. The reason is that the Hippo needs more swimming space to stay healthy. The Foxface is more content to hang out over the rocks grazing. Fish size just doesn't come into play except for very juvenile fish, typically under 2" in length.

I am sorry you find yourself in this situation and you have some tough decisions to make. I wish you luck and if you want help, please ask!

 

[Zeezah]

First thank you all for you expertise and advise. I am truly a novice at this but do so love my fish. I don't believe this particular CS REP at my LFS was trying to dupe me into buying a fish, I think he is just as uneducated as I am about saltwater fish. It was stupid and impulsive on my part. Unfortunately they are the only fish store I have access to as we live in a landlocked community (the only way in or out is by boat or plane). I can order fish online but that can be an even worse guessing game. I checked for all of the treatments listed above at my LFS and they have NONE ON THE SHELVES nor slots for them. I did purchase and have dosed my tank with the following: Imagitarium Bio Booster, API Stress Coat + and API Pimafix and have ordered Seachem Cupramine Copper 100ml from a store in Cali and hope to have it buy the weekend but that maybe a long shot. I have discovered a store in another city close by that is not a chain pet store like what we have here and it specializes in aquatics. I am waiting to hear back from them to see if they have anything to help but haven't heard back from them.

As of this morning, my Sailfin looks worse and is breathing heavily, I think she may have a sore on her mouth and again did not eat.

Well before I could finish typing this she was gone. I took a few pictures of her this morning (attached) and by the time I got my kids napping she was dead. Will continue to treat my Niger Trigger even though he isn't showing any signs of illness. He is however still hanging out on the bottom of the aquarium he is breathing normally and fluttering his fins but it has been a few day since I have seen him swim around and he is not eating. I picked up the Face Mask decoration he was under to assure he was still alive and he hung on until I put the decoration back down. At which point he let go and moved to where he is now (attached another pic). Can anyone chime in on what maybe going on with my Trigger?

Thanks Again

 

[urban coral farmer]

If you use the copper in your tank with inverts they will die