Sickness in DT and QT tanks

[Wey]

Hello

I need some urgent advice regarding my tanks

1x 200L QT tank containing 2x Clown + Bengal (juvenile) + royal Gramma + Longhorn Cowfish (juvenile) + Hippo Tang (Juvenile) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5 1.025 sg 26degC

1x 600L +100L Sump DT, UV Sterilizer Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 6 1.025 sg tamp 26degC

my most recent batch of fish going through QT were the ones listed above. All added 7 weeks ago. After 4 weeks i was about ready to move all into DT after a peaceful and normal QT period. However i noticed some new spots on my Cowfish, like small white marks. (pic 1 below)

I was not sure if sickness or just cowfish pattern changing as it gets older as i know adults can have white marks on the facial area. Because of this, i delayed moving to DT and monitored for a few more weeks.


Then last week, approx 10 days ago, noticed severe discoloration on the hippo, spottiness on its mucus layer and scratching itself on the rocks. This then spread to the clowns also after 2-3 days.

4 days ago, both clowns are dead (both visually containing same spots/mucus damage), as is the Gramma (no visible damage or sickness) and the hippo is looking totally healthy and recovered. The clowns both look like they had velvet (pic attached)

I had basically written off the entire QT tank, but the remaining survivors are seemingly fine, showing no symptoms or sickness. That would be the end of the drama, however i had to travel for a few days last week and my partner mistakenly used tools from the QT tank on my DT. and Today, i spotted spots on my PBT in my DT. ( please excuse the terrible picture. I went full panic mode and assumed worse case immediately, so i removed all corals and rock from the DT so i could catch the fish. I know its a poor picture, but hopefully you can tell the spots from the sand floating free). This PBT (and whole tank) have always been perfect health until today

I went to my LFS (a very highly reputable one in the UK) and they believed, after looking at the pics, that this was likely chemical damage rather than sickness in the QT tank, and the DT is likely the same (despite visually looking different).

Id appreciate any suggestions on next steps, and opinions on sickness vs chemical damage

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello

I need some urgent advice regarding my tanks

1x 200L QT tank containing 2x Clown + Bengal (juvenile) + royal Gramma + Longhorn Cowfish (juvenile) + Hippo Tang (Juvenile) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5 1.025 sg 26degC

1x 600L +100L Sump DT, UV Sterilizer Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 6 1.025 sg tamp 26degC

my most recent batch of fish going through QT were the ones listed above. All added 7 weeks ago. After 4 weeks i was about ready to move all into DT after a peaceful and normal QT period. However i noticed some new spots on my Cowfish, like small white marks. (pic 1 below)

I was not sure if sickness or just cowfish pattern changing as it gets older as i know adults can have white marks on the facial area. Because of this, i delayed moving to DT and monitored for a few more weeks.


Then last week, approx 10 days ago, noticed severe discoloration on the hippo, spottiness on its mucus layer and scratching itself on the rocks. This then spread to the clowns also after 2-3 days.

4 days ago, both clowns are dead (both visually containing same spots/mucus damage), as is the Gramma (no visible damage or sickness) and the hippo is looking totally healthy and recovered. The clowns both look like they had velvet (pic attached)

I had basically written off the entire QT tank, but the remaining survivors are seemingly fine, showing no symptoms or sickness. That would be the end of the drama, however i had to travel for a few days last week and my partner mistakenly used tools from the QT tank on my DT. and Today, i spotted spots on my PBT in my DT. ( please excuse the terrible picture. I went full panic mode and assumed worse case immediately, so i removed all corals and rock from the DT so i could catch the fish. I know its a poor picture, but hopefully you can tell the spots from the sand floating free). This PBT (and whole tank) have always been perfect health until today

I went to my LFS (a very highly reputable one in the UK) and they believed, after looking at the pics, that this was likely chemical damage rather than sickness in the QT tank, and the DT is likely the same (despite visually looking different).

Id appreciate any suggestions on next steps, and opinions on sickness vs chemical damage

Cowfish very susceptible to ich and personally should not be sold in the hobby. He may be the main contractor of other issues
You stated they were in Quarantine. Were they being treated with anything and if so for how long under treatment?
Clownfish has ich or bacterial lesions. Powder blue show mucus cones associated with either ich or skin irritations.
Again, goes back to what treatments if any your were using.
These fish will need to be in a quarantine setting with freshly made water and treated with coppersafe and Seachem kanaplex

 

[Wey]

Thanks for your quick reply.

in QT they had only UV running, no specific treatments. I usually just monitor over 6 weeks and only action if required

As i stated earlier, in panic, I removed all my rock, corals and shrimp from the DT earlier today. Only sand is remaining in the DT now (and fish). Should i treat this DT and all the fish in it, or pull out the PBT and treat alone in another tank, and monitor the rest? I have been working under the assumption that the rest of the fish are also sick now

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for your quick reply.

in QT they had only UV running, no specific treatments. I usually just monitor over 6 weeks and only action if required

As i stated earlier, in panic, I removed all my rock, corals and shrimp from the DT earlier today. Only sand is remaining in the DT now (and fish). Should i treat this DT and all the fish in it, or pull out the PBT and treat alone in another tank, and monitor the rest? I have been working under the assumption that the rest of the fish are also sick now

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Sorry to see - looks like you have marine ich going through both tanks.
Observational quarantine is almost always a grave mistake…it is best to proactively treat for the common diseases.

Here is the method we suggest: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

At this point, once fish loss has begun, it can be difficult to stop an ich infection. Copper would be your best choice, but hyposalinity could also work. Neither can be done with invertebrates present of course.

Jay

 

[Wey]

How soon after reaching 2.5ppm of copper power, would you expect to see improvements to the fish mucus layer? I have all my DT fish caught and into new QT tanks and all to 2.5ppm but no improvement after 10 days. The only visual change, is now the PBT spots which were previously small round white specs, are now very short stringy growths, that move in the current, if that makes sense? Would this typically still point to Ich?

Thanks

Cowfish very susceptible to ich and personally should not be sold in the hobby. He may be the main contractor of other issues
You stated they were in Quarantine. Were they being treated with anything and if so for how long under treatment?
Clownfish has ich or bacterial lesions. Powder blue show mucus cones associated with either ich or skin irritations.
Again, goes back to what treatments if any your were using.
These fish will need to be in a quarantine setting with freshly made water and treated with coppersafe and Seachem kanaplex

 

[Wey]

Stringy bits visible here

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How soon after reaching 2.5ppm of copper power, would you expect to see improvements to the fish mucus layer? I have all my DT fish caught and into new QT tanks and all to 2.5ppm but no improvement after 10 days. The only visual change, is now the PBT spots which were previously small round white specs, are now very short stringy growths, that move in the current, if that makes sense? Would this typically still point to Ich?

Thanks

Generally, marine ich starts to recede after about three days in 2.5 ppm coppersafe or copper power. With really active infections, it can take a few days longer. However, after ten days, it should have resolved. I think what you are seeing now are "mucus plugs". These form when skin cells produce strands of mucus. This in turn can be as a response to ich, or some other stressor.

If the fish are otherwise eating and acting o.k., I would continue the copper power for 30 days. If the fish are showing other symptoms - rapid breathing, not eat, etc. then we should reevaluate....

Jay

 

[Wey]

Generally, marine ich starts to recede after about three days in 2.5 ppm coppersafe or copper power. With really active infections, it can take a few days longer. However, after ten days, it should have resolved. I think what you are seeing now are "mucus plugs". These form when skin cells produce strands of mucus. This in turn can be as a response to ich, or some other stressor.

If the fish are otherwise eating and acting o.k., I would continue the copper power for 30 days. If the fish are showing other symptoms - rapid breathing, not eat, etc. then we should reevaluate....

Jay

Great, will monitor for a few more days.

I am worried about my Copperband BF which was eating great in the QT Tank, but since adding the copper it has lost its appetite and spits out most food. Could the copper treatment stop it from eating properly?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Great, will monitor for a few more days.

I am worried about my Copperband BF which was eating great in the QT Tank, but since adding the copper it has lost its appetite and spits out most food. Could the copper treatment stop it from eating properly?

Copper is often implicated in fish not feeding well, but copper power and coppersafe usually don't cause that issue, while ionic forms of copper do. More likely, there is something else going on it the QT that is causing the CBB to spit food - some water quality issue, being in a bare tank, some other stressor?

Taking food in but then spitting it out is a problem that needs to be dealt with ASAP....eventually, the fish will just stop trying altogether. Can you try different foods? Perhaps live brine shrimp or live mussels on the half shell?

Jay

 

[Wey]

Update:

My copperband died a couple days ago, would not eat regardless of what food i tried. Visually, the PBT is still showing the mucus plugs, but less of them for sure. My Gem Tang is still showing major stress signs (pure white lines / marks down both sides of him, but only shows full white at night when sleeping. I am still not sure if we are treating for the correct thing, with no real improvements after this long.

At what point should we give up on the copper treatment and move to something else?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update:

My copperband died a couple days ago, would not eat regardless of what food i tried. Visually, the PBT is still showing the mucus plugs, but less of them for sure. My Gem Tang is still showing major stress signs (pure white lines / marks down both sides of him, but only shows full white at night when sleeping. I am still not sure if we are treating for the correct thing, with no real improvements after this long.

At what point should we give up on the copper treatment and move to something else?

Copper needs to be run for 30 days, but you can sometimes skate by with 21 days. Then, you should follow up with praziquantel, in case the fish have flukes.

Jay

 

[Wey]

Copper needs to be run for 30 days, but you can sometimes skate by with 21 days. Then, you should follow up with praziquantel, in case the fish have flukes.

Jay

Even if it doesn't seem to be working? Is there any signs of progress or do i just need to wait out the 30 days and hope? I hate seeing them so stressed and sick, feels very helpless!

 

[K9Fish]

Even if it doesn't seem to be working? Is there any signs of progress or do i just need to wait out the 30 days and hope? I hate seeing them so stressed and sick, feels very helpless!

Follow Jay’s advice, his recommendations and protocols are solid. Jay and Vetteguy got me through a terrible Velvet outbreak which I’m on the backside of now and will have my fish back into the DT in another couple weeks. Don’t let the Copper worry you. I have a new CBB that is in quarantine now that is eating like a machine, the copper has no ill effect. Good luck.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Even if it doesn't seem to be working? Is there any signs of progress or do i just need to wait out the 30 days and hope? I hate seeing them so stressed and sick, feels very helpless!

Well, we are going under the assumption that the tank had ich. If you don't finish at least 21 days of copper, the ich may just return. The stress issue with the gem tang could be an unrelated issue. Can you post a video of the fish and then one of the tank overall?

Jay

 

[Wey]

Update: Lost 4 more fish.
Gem tang is on verge of death as we hit day 28 of being in 2.5ppm copper power. Rest of parameters normal. Parrot fish is also worsening.

Vid 1: tank with Gem and Parrot

vid 2: tanks with remaining 'small' fish (1 with 2 clowns + 1 Cardinal) (1 PBT + Pygmy Basslet)

PBT is flashing a lot and not eating. Cardinal is not eating.

Honestly, totally devastated. Not an easy hobby in the first place, and to lose so many living things due to mistakes on my part is heart breaking.

Beginning the praziquantel treatment in the tanks today but hold no hope for any of them at this point

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update: Lost 4 more fish.
Gem tang is on verge of death as we hit day 28 of being in 2.5ppm copper power. Rest of parameters normal. Parrot fish is also worsening.

Vid 1: tank with Gem and Parrot

vid 2: tanks with remaining 'small' fish (1 with 2 clowns + 1 Cardinal) (1 PBT + Pygmy Basslet)

PBT is flashing a lot and not eating. Cardinal is not eating.

Honestly, totally devastated. Not an easy hobby in the first place, and to lose so many living things due to mistakes on my part is heart breaking.

Beginning the praziquantel treatment in the tanks today but hold no hope for any of them at this point

Sorry to hear.

The powder blue still looks pretty good.

The gem and parrotfish are just showing signs of rapid breathing - they look good otherwise (color and body weight, skin is clear) Have they been in copper, full dose, for the full 30 days? If so, you can rule out velvet at this point. That leaves low oxygen or gill flukes as the next most likel issues.

What prazi product are you using? Be sure to aerate the tank really well during treatment.

Jay

 

[Wey]

The Gem and Parrot have been in 2.5ppm for 30 days, the PBT tank dropped to 2.2PPM for a couple days when i ran out of copperpower and had a slight drop until i could get more but never dropped below 2.2ppm

oxygen is high in all 3 tanks.

Will be dosing with prazipro

When you say aerate, is a powerhead pointed towards surface better or just an air stone needed?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The Gem and Parrot have been in 2.5ppm for 30 days, the PBT tank dropped to 2.2PPM for a couple days when i ran out of copperpower and had a slight drop until i could get more but never dropped below 2.2ppm

oxygen is high in all 3 tanks.

Will be dosing with prazipro

When you say aerate, is a powerhead pointed towards surface better or just an air stone needed?

I prefer an airstone as it gets bubbles all the way to the bottom of the tank. Keep any protein skimmers running, just don’t collect anything in the cup during the treatment.
Jay

 

[Wey]

Update:
treated with 3x prazipro courses as per the recommended dosages. Deaths continued. PBT and Parrot are only remaining fish now (from 20 at day 1 of the outbreak). No signs of sickness on any of the fish that died in the last few weeks (no spots or red gills or anything at all abnormal visually)
Have no confidence now that the 2 remaining fish will ever be trusted to go into any new potential display tank rebuild as i still cannot say they are healthy, even when visually fine.

Any ideas on next steps? Should i just give up at this point and give the fish to a LFS who might know more

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update:
treated with 3x prazipro courses as per the recommended dosages. Deaths continued. PBT and Parrot are only remaining fish now (from 20 at day 1 of the outbreak). No signs of sickness on any of the fish that died in the last few weeks (no spots or red gills or anything at all abnormal visually)
Have no confidence now that the 2 remaining fish will ever be trusted to go into any new potential display tank rebuild as i still cannot say they are healthy, even when visually fine.

Any ideas on next steps? Should i just give up at this point and give the fish to a LFS who might know more

Sorry to hear. Since we don't know what the original issue(s) were, it is tough to say if/when the two remaining fish will be safe and not be considered "carriers".

For a frame of reference, I always wait 45 days from the date of the last unknown fish death before even considering moving the remaining fish to another tank - not a perfect solution, but that time span does help limit transmission.

Jay