Skimmer vs algae scrubber

[CKI]

Just purchased a red Sea reefer 170 which has a small sump. would I benefit more from a skimmer or a well custom built scrubber that meets my needs? I know in the past everyone bashed them, but they have came a long way and would like some input

 

[Tegridy Reef]

My svubber does the trick for me

 

[Diesel]

I used both to test on the frag tanks and I had good results with a scrubber.
The one thing is a skimmer romoves a lot more than only poop.
Which comes in handy at times.

 

[cpschult]

I was actually trying to research the exact same thing in regards to a chaeto reactor!

I've never gone skimmer less before but seriously considering it.

Reef wise, a nice store in Chicago uses only a scrubber on their tanks!

 

[jason2459]

Why not both.

 

[Waboss]

I'm running both on my Reefer170. Hard to say how well it's working yet since I just added the scrubber about 3 weeks ago.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Both if it is a large system. I would not go without mine. See other thread for why. :)
34g I would probably only run a skimmer. You are short on room unless you make a huge sump.

 

[Lninwa]

Does anyone here have experience using the Santa Monica scrubber?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Does anyone here have experience using the Santa Monica scrubber?

There is a guy near me who had one. He found it a bit loud (air bubbling) and up flow scrubbers have to be twice the size of a waterfall scrubber to work well.

Up-flows are good for if the power goes out for a long time as the algae wont die because it is still submerged and they cant overflow if you get lazy and don't clean it but that's where their advantages stop IMO.

Waterfall scrubbers use both sides of the screen so are a lot more efficient and very easy to clean as well.

 

[Tegridy Reef]

Does anyone here have experience using the Santa Monica scrubber?

I do i have to and love them

 

[Waboss]

Does anyone here have experience using the Santa Monica scrubber?

I have the new RAIN2 on my Reefer170. Here's a link to my first couple of weeks with it. I'll be updating it again today/tomorrow with week 3.

 

[Elegance Coral]

Just purchased a red Sea reefer 170 which has a small sump. would I benefit more from a skimmer or a well custom built scrubber that meets my needs? I know in the past everyone bashed them, but they have came a long way and would like some input

Well, it has become politically incorrect to speak about the shortcomings of ATS's. It's become almost religious. Anything spoken negatively about ATS's, even if true, is viewed by many as blasphemy. I'll probably get gang attacked by the ATS disciples for this post, but here goes.

The only thing that has "come a long way" is the ability to grow more algae in a smaller space. The chemistry and biology involved is still exactly the same as it has always been.

Protein skimmers work by removing organics before they rot and release things like nitrate, phosphate, and heavy medals into our water. ATS's work by removing the nitrogen, phosphate, and heavy medals, after the organics have rotted and released these substantces into the water.

Protein skimmers add very little to the water other than gas exchange, which is typically viewed as a good thing, and a little heat from the pumps.

While ATS's also add gas exchange and heat, they also add a wide range of unwanted substances to our water. From simple tannins that make our water look dirty, to allelopathic substances evolved for the purpose of killing corals. Turf algae also has an incredible ability to invade and take over new territory. Everyone that has dealt with a hair algae outbreak has seen this ability first hand. This alone should render the idea of deliberatly culturing such an organism, in a tank dedicated to corals, questionable at best.

Below is a paper, with multiple links, that describe the negitive effects of turf, and other algae, on coral health, growth, and reproduction.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjt4Pq8l8TQAhUD6iYKHfAHD7wQFghHMAo&url=https://peerj.com/articles/1984/&usg=AFQjCNHBPzUq09dlLFltzNsQO-fFvTfcCQ&sig2=s7k1ogtDhOjh32z-Ztq9og

HTH
Peace
EC

 

[jason2459]

I don't doubt chemical warfare is a concern. That paper was more about localized interaction and not any kind of DOC.

Abstract

Turf algae are becoming more abundant on coral reefs worldwide, but their effects on other benthic organisms remain poorly described. To describe the general characteristics of competitive interactions between corals and turf algae, we determined the occurrence and outcomes of coral–turf algal interactions among different coral growth forms (branching, upright, massive, encrusting, plating, and solitary) on a shallow reef in Vietnam. In total, the amount of turf algal interaction, i.e., the proportion of the coral boundary directly bordering turf algae, was quantified for 1,276 coral colonies belonging to 27 genera and the putative outcome of each interaction was noted. The amount of turf algal interaction and the outcome of these interactions differed predictably among the six growth forms. Encrusting corals interacted most often with turf algae, but also competed most successfully against turf algae. The opposite was observed for branching corals, which rarely interacted with turf algae and rarely won these competitive interactions. Including all other growth forms, a positive relationship was found between the amount of competitive interactions with neighboring turf algae and the percentage of such interaction won by the coral. This growth form dependent ability to outcompete turf algae was not only observed among coral species, but also among different growth forms in morphologically plastic coral genera (Acropora, Favia, Favites, Montastrea, Montipora, Porites) illustrating the general nature of this relationship.

Algae does release a photosynthate (sugar) that contributes to DOC as well which can be a benificial food source.

There needs to be a balance and there's many ways to achieve that and those with success doing one thing many find failures trying to do the same thing. Skimmerless, ATS, no water change, etc all have their followers with success and failures.

My methods/beliefs are a combination of what I learned from others.

Copy paste what I've posted previously

It's really a combination of everything which I didn't come up with any of it. It's been researching and reading up what others have done here on reefcentral. PaulB and Randy were big influences and what I've incorporated at the beginning. TMZ has influenced some changes as well like dosing limewater separate from my ATO on a timer and carbon sources.

I also think some of it is what I don't do. Like I don't believe in heavy mechanical filtration or keeping everything squeaky clean. I do not, will not, and do not care to have a tank of the month either. I'm with PaulB there. And like Randy I don't do anything to the detritus in my sump. It just builds up over time like mud and turns into food and shelter. I don't mess with my sand bed but do like PaulB and create a typhoon in my tank with a diatom filter once a year or so (sometimes longer).

So, what I actively do that I think helps....

I'll copy paste what I've posted recently in another thread.

There's so many ways to run a reef tank. Many people have posted stellar examples using so many different methods and there's many people failing trying to use the same exact methods.

For me I use a mixed approach and don't depend on any single thing to be the main "thing" to maintain my tank.

Carbon dosing with vinegar to reduce nitrates and maintain low phosphates and directly feed other organisms, besides just bacteria, in the tank.

Skimmer to help remove excess bacteria exporting what they've consumed and anything else that attaches to the bubbles. Plus helping to aerate the water and boost my pH.

Some kind of algae harvesting to work with the carbon dosing to help remove unwanted elements and nutrients. Currently running a Turbo ATS. Slight pH increase from it.

Reversed Under gravel filter to increase microfauna, pods, worms, sponges, etc plus it may help reduce nitrates.

~1% daily automatic water changes exporting whatever and importing stuff.

 

[cpschult]

Ec did you read the paper? I couldn't find in there where it says turf algae release any allelopathic substances. Their study was on competition for space.. Which is why ats scrubbers have a deliberate cultivation area.. I'm not pro or con I just hate deliberate misuse of scientific information..

 

[Elegance Coral]

I mentioned that the link I posted contained multiple other links. These are links to multiple research papers about the adverse effects of algae on corals.

this is what I said about the link.
"Below is a paper, with multiple links, that describe the negative effects of turf, and other algae, on coral health, growth, and reproduction."

 

[jason2459]

Much more helpful to link directly to a reference to support an argument.

 

[Elegance Coral]

Ec did you read the paper? I couldn't find in there where it says turf algae release any allelopathic substances. Their study was on competition for space.. Which is why ats scrubbers have a deliberate cultivation area.. I'm not pro or con I just hate deliberate misuse of scientific information..

And this is the disciple stuff I was talking about.

I said this in my post.
" Turf algae also has an incredible ability to invade and take over new territory. Everyone that has dealt with a hair algae outbreak has seen this ability first hand. This alone should render the idea of deliberately culturing such an organism, in a tank dedicated to corals, questionable at best."

Sounds to me like I did talk about the "competition for space".

Why would you pick one line out of my entire post and complain that the link doesn't cover it???? Naturally, the link doesn't cover everything I touched on. That doesn't make what I said any more or less true.

 

[jason2459]

And this is the disciple stuff I was talking about.

I said this in my post.
" Turf algae also has an incredible ability to invade and take over new territory. Everyone that has dealt with a hair algae outbreak has seen this ability first hand. This alone should render the idea of deliberately culturing such an organism, in a tank dedicated to corals, questionable at best."

Sounds to me like I did talk about the "competition for space".

Don't become defensive or use redirection like above. Just post the facts and that will help your stance more then back and forth arguments and insults like calling someone a disciple.

 

[cpschult]

I also don't have an algae scrubber.

I used a diy for awhile, don't anymore. Not sure how it makes me a disciple. I'm trying to point out the contradiction in your argument though.

If you have nutrients that can grow algae in your tank, in my opinion it's better to do that in a place outside of where your corals are, wether that's in a Refugium, algae scrubber, or chaeto reactor.

I can continue to pull on the threads of your argument if you'd like.

The main reason I commented was because it's clearly better to grow algae outside of your DT, regardless of type, which I feel is reinforced by competition study that you linked to.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I also don't have an algae scrubber.

I used a diy for awhile, don't anymore. Not sure how it makes me a disciple. I'm trying to point out the contradiction in your argument though.

If you have nutrients that can grow algae in your tank, in my opinion it's better to do that in a place outside of where your corals are, wether that's in a Refugium, algae scrubber, or chaeto reactor.

I can continue to pull on the threads of your argument if you'd like.

The main reason I commented was because it's clearly better to grow algae outside of your DT, regardless of type, which I feel is reinforced by competition study that you linked to.

This was my reasoning for having one and it has been great.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/skimmer-vs-algae-scrubber.275628/#post-3324124