That’s what I’m waiting for! A frozen fish feeder would be a game changer. I’m not savvy enough to put a diy one together but would be first in line to buy one!
I have a frozen fish feeder. He's sleeping now.
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That’s what I’m waiting for! A frozen fish feeder would be a game changer. I’m not savvy enough to put a diy one together but would be first in line to buy one!
Not really sure what you mean by this. Even the largest and most complex aquariums fall well short of 'big' data .... 'small' data really. Big data might be Apex monitoring weather feeds in your area, correlating them to the potential for power outages and reminding you to 'exercise' the generator. As to 'intelligence', if you mean A.I, then nowhere close to that; if you mean more basic sense and respond, then Fusion is already there. I'm just not sure that apex is robust enough to be 'respond' reliable.
Sorry that I have to ask my friend who draw it. It is his copyright.I could use a funnel similar to yours. Would you share the STL file? Putting the feeder on top of the light is the perfect place for it!
That is not true at all. I have a very limited budget for my tank. You can pick everything you need used, and save 50-75%. Even if you shop for new carefully you can save a lot. I found several items brand new for less that used ones were selling for. Granted you may not find what your looking for tomorrow.
That is not true at all. I have a very limited budget for my tank. You can pick everything you need used, and save 50-75%. Even if you shop for new carefully you can save a lot. I found several items brand new for less that used ones were selling for. Granted you may not find what your looking for tomorrow.
That is fantastic news that you and wife have same focus. You are absolutely right, DIY for our own tank is so much fun during the process and the achievement is priceless.I agree, I personally live on a college-student budget with my wife. I am only building a pico tank atm. But, we are able to afford it. And what we can't afford in equipment I am building myself. So I have some fun projects that I can do and can include my wife in so that she gets more attached to the tank as well.
I like your conclusion a lot and it point out some dilemma between quality requirements and reality. Agree fully that there is big delta between consumer grade, enterprise grade, industry grade, automotive grade, etc... all have very different approaches and quality requirements for automation. I was a Cisco SW manager before I joined car industry and I did see a big delta in between regarding quality. As an example, A-SPICE SW flow and many quality certifications become mandatory for automotive grade products, which Apex or GHL kind of products won't even able to pass level-1 requirement.Ladies and gentlemen.
I am a senior automation engineer for Siemens. There is a few things you have to bear in mind. The first is that Apex and GHL are truly only hobby grade equipment. I do not mean this in a bad way but if I were to ask the owners of each company to stake their lives on their products by living in an environment entirely dependant on their equipment I can guarantee the answer would be a resounding no.
True industrial/ pharmaceutical grade equipment by Allen Bradley or Siemens far outstrips the capabilities of GHL or Apex but it does rely on the skill of the programmer. It also exceeds the reliability of hobby grade equipment by a large factor.
The offset of this is the cost and level of competency required to operate and design the equipment and that is before you even begin considering the costs.
Again with the industrial units you can include a PC based HMI or SCADA to provide remote access and trend capabilities, this can be furthered to beyond most people’s imaginations. You can integrate webcams as you like. The limitation really depends on your capabilities as a designer.
Although I do automation as a profession, I originally started off with a hobby grade kit. The unit in its configuration was quite expensive and ultimately failed killing almost every coral in my tank thanks to buggy software and a terrible user interface. My current setup has cost me about the same but is light years ahead of what I had previously. Using a custom system is far more forgiving as it allows upgrades almost without limitation.
As an example I have a cheap 500ml/min doser. My system runs at less than 1ms thus allowing me a consistent and reliable dosing amount of amount of less than 0.01ml from a $5 peristaltic pump.
In conclusion what you should go for depends on your level of knowledge on automation. Budget for either option truly is about the same. If anyone is after advice then feel free to PM me. I am giving away all my knowledge and designs for free including how to make your own Alk controller/monitor.
Happy reefing
Zane
As i would agree that we need a system that is better and more reliable and as people in the hobby start to really adopt automation it will progress i look back 5-10 years and all that really was available were basically egg timers and some float valves so i am happy we are where we are today (like you i would like more).Thank you @shih87
This is a very long topic to discuss but one that I love. My view on current tank automation is that it is still in its infancy but that it is also unacceptably unreliable. We have all paid a lot of money on these systems only to have them fail in one way or another.
Enough of my complaints towards them.
What I want to see from the vendors is a truly modern and reliable product. By modern I mean a system that is capable of monitoring and trending all the of the information from our tanks in a stand-alone setup without requiring internet access. I feel internet access should be reserved only for remote access or firmware updates. Keystroke and event logging are very easy to set up any modern control system.
Systems shouldn’t have single points of failure.
My experience has always been that things don’t have to look flashy but they absolutely must work.
I don’t see responsibility from vendors when things go wrong. They may replace damaged components but that is about all. Let’s pretend I was a car manufacturer. I sold you a car that had faulty brakes leading to you crashing into the side of a house. I would only pay for the damage to your car at best. Would you be willing to accept that? Absolutely not. The value of what we lose in terms of coral etc far exceeds the cost of the controllers in most cases. Nobody ever gets paid out for that damage.
If someone showed interest I would be quite happy to build custom control systems for the hardware cost alone. I want to show the vendors publicly that what they are producing simply isn’t up to modern standards. It would be so easy to offer a guarantee and stand by my product because of the keystroke and event logging. It is plain as day at that point for everyone to see where the fault lies.
The systems sold to us in the future have to improve but I am very hopeful that they will reach the point they should be at. This will include remote access, no reliance on an internet connection, simple learning procedures for dosing, reliable control with failsafe routines and accurate dosing and measuring. These are not hard to achieve and are available right now.
Haha sorry enough ranting. If you want specifics please just ask your questions and I will get to them as soon as I can.
Thanks
Zane
You are absolutely correct. I believe that the programming should be left to the vendor and the responsibility should also lie with the vendor. I will be honest, even to write a program to run an alkalinity test shouldn’t take more than half an hour for someone with experience.As i would agree that we need a system that is better and more reliable and as people in the hobby start to really adopt automation it will progress i look back 5-10 years and all that really was available were basically egg timers and some float valves so i am happy we are where we are today (like you i would like more).
having said that most reefers are not able or willing to spend the money or dont have the knowledge to build and program a custom system. I have noticed a large majority of people have trouble setting up the basic apex routines so you start adding the customization that you started outlining and im not sure how it would end up.
The problem develops when you try to make a product for the masses, it has to be idiot proof (at least as much as possible) and has to be dummied down to have the best draw to the most consumers for ROI purposes. So as much as a single pump may only cost $x.xx that is only part of the larger picture. take the car analogy you were using and you can go make or buy all of the parts to make your own car but by the time you build it, then start driving it, problem solve it and finalize it, you will have spent less but overall cost more due to your time, and maybe cost more also, not to mention that assumes you put it together perfectly.
Anyway having said all of that, i do agree with you underlying points that we need a better solution for a reasonable price. i have all the apex products and i am very happy with it so far but there is ALOT of room for advancement and i look forward to it. My system is pretty much self sufficient for 1-2 weeks and if someone could figure out how to automatically mix salt into my RO my system could possible run months with only some glass cleaning.
you made some great points and hopefully everyone in the hobby is reading threads like this and getting the automation going as that will prompt the bigger manufacturers to continue upgrading.
The price of what Danny?I wonder the price.....;Penguin
I haven’t really had a look but from an enthusiast and price perspective it is attractive. I have reservations about hardware reliability and lifespan. Aquarium cabinets are genuinely harsh environments.@ZaneTer given your profession I would be curious about your thoughts on the Reef-Pi project and how it's reliability could be improved. If you haven't taken a look it's over in the DIY section of the forums
Smart Aquarium is Coming
“Then I will choose to quit reefing first.”
Background
Not too long ago I asked a senior reef hobbyist how he deals with long vacations and his answer shocked me.
His words inspired me to create a “smart aquarium.” What I need is a hobby to enjoy and to unwind from work. Yet, does so without pressuring other family members (Yes, I always tell my wife I bought something at an unbelievably discounted price), and still allows me to be free long (3~4 weeks) vacations.
These days, ULM (Ultra Low Maintenance) tanks have become a popular topic. Many reefers and vendors try to define what constitutes ULM. This includes the amount of effort to put in, what kind of coral (e.g. NPS) to avoid, etc. ULM and smart aquariums definitely have some overlap due to similar technological limitations; however, smart aquariums lean more towards automation and managing tank routines, not simply avoiding effort.
The result of my smart aquarium can be found HERE in article format or HERE in video.
Technology vs fish room
More and more often these days, reef hobbyists share their neat tank systems which are equipped with compact light systems and a well-organized sump integrated with a reef controller and dosing system. Having a medium to large (300 gallons in my opinion) reef tank no longer requires a fish room running loud and heavy duty equipment to be successful. Since Apex and GHL controllers have become available to the saltwater market at a relatively affordable price range, the goal of smart aquariums is half way done. In fact, these systems may even be better than many so called “smart homes” from my view. Many probes (e.g. temperature, PH, ORP, etc.) and sensors (e.g. water level, leaking, voltage, etc.) help tank owners pre-define and program tank behaviors in a manageable way. Their warning and alert functionality, and cloud service push the smart aquarium boundary in a big way.
Challenges: coral survival rate
But still, coral is a finicky animal and family safety is priceless. We often hear how temperature and alkalinity can cause tank failures. Temperature is easy to measure and adjust with a cooler and a heater, especially with temperature probes connected to the reef controller. Alkalinity has been a totally different story for decades. Luckily, since 2017, Alkalinity monitors became available from companies like Dr. Bridge and GHL. When combined with a remote controllable dosing system, we again push the boundary of smart aquariums.
Challenges: home safety
Tanks bring water and electricity together in one environment and that entails risk. Preventing bad things from happening is one thing and owning high quality devices help, knowing about it when it happens is another. Spending 50% more for top quality equipment and doubling the effort for tank robustness are gradually become acceptable concepts. Preventing pump failure does not simply mean replacing the pump when you are not around; there could be bigger problems than the couple hundred dollars you save for buying a cheap pump.
You love your tank, every day you meticulously maintain, feed, test and correct, and fix small things before it becomes chaos. But you also want a break and tanks obviously can’t take breaks. Feeding and providing nutrition are low hanging fruits if you have programmable dosing pumps and feeders. Latest generation dosing pumps such as GHL and Apex, all provide cloud services which allow you to control them via mobile phone even from thousands of miles away. Some may say maintenance is not needed for short periods of time, but with extended vacation, some obstacles start to show up. Algae growth on glass, top-off, element consumption ratio change, etc. There are robot algae scrapers available today that may help with algae cleaning, but it did not bother most of us much anyway when nobody is at home. For OTA, some reefers are very successful connecting a RO/DI source to the tank OTA system directly, while others choose a bigger RD/DI container isolated from RO/DI system to avoid equipment failure. Either way has pros and cons, but both are easy enough. I chose to minimize maintenance and to monitor tank condition in real time via IPCams, in case I need to shut off the entire tank’s power, abandoning the tank but keeping the house safe. True experience, after hearing about an earthquake that hit a local town in Taiwan during my vacation, I was able to check these IPCams to comfort myself.
Room to improve
Saying that, there is always room for improvement from a commercial solution. I chose an Apex controller equipped with an AFS feeder, WaV wave makers, DoS dosing pumps. However, alone they are not enough to reach my “smart aquarium” goal. Apex so far has no Alkalinity probe, so as I said earlier, I choose Dr. Bridge’s KHG to auto test Alkalinity (fig. 1) and link to Apex Fusion for daily access and alert trigger; AFS is a good little toy, but it won’t tell you when a feeder box is empty, so my friends made a weight sensor to read AFS weight daily and text me when it is empty (fig. 2); In general, dosing pump quickly replace calcium reactor position in many reefers’ heart, and Apex DoS is capable to calculate supplement left in container. But no way to count drop in real time, nor to know if tube clog and the supplement does not reach tank, but your floor. Here is a prototype drop counter (fig. 3), detect each drop at the last distance from tube to tank water. Of course, due to quality and robustness concern, my DIY items are limited to non-invasive, data reading only type of devices or tools.
Future and conclusion
I believe we can expect even more smart aquarium concepts, devices, and solutions to come to the market in the near future instead of DIY projects like mine. I won’t be surprised at all if a company like Neptune Apex, who now has access to millions of users’ data (I guess all tanks using Apex Fusion will have their tank data streamed to the Apex server), will announce a killer application to change our way of reefing. Companies like Zeovit, AquaForest will further provide best coral color improvement recipes. Traditional saltwater test kit providers such as Hanna and Salifert will quickly answer to the threat from newcomers like Neptune, GHL, and Dr. Bridge who try to redefine our daily test experience. Let’s expect these days in the future.
Joseph Chi a.k.a @shih87
Did you hear back from your friend?Sorry that I have to ask my friend who draw it. It is his copyright.
I wouldn't mind having my display tank all automated it, while I'm on the vacation for 1 or 2 months. Thanks for the write up, comradeSmart Aquarium is Coming
“Then I will choose to quit reefing first.”
Background
Not too long ago I asked a senior reef hobbyist how he deals with long vacations and his answer shocked me.
His words inspired me to create a “smart aquarium.” What I need is a hobby to enjoy and to unwind from work. Yet, does so without pressuring other family members (Yes, I always tell my wife I bought something at an unbelievably discounted price), and still allows me to be free long (3~4 weeks) vacations.
These days, ULM (Ultra Low Maintenance) tanks have become a popular topic. Many reefers and vendors try to define what constitutes ULM. This includes the amount of effort to put in, what kind of coral (e.g. NPS) to avoid, etc. ULM and smart aquariums definitely have some overlap due to similar technological limitations; however, smart aquariums lean more towards automation and managing tank routines, not simply avoiding effort.
The result of my smart aquarium can be found HERE in article format or HERE in video.
Technology vs fish room
More and more often these days, reef hobbyists share their neat tank systems which are equipped with compact light systems and a well-organized sump integrated with a reef controller and dosing system. Having a medium to large (300 gallons in my opinion) reef tank no longer requires a fish room running loud and heavy duty equipment to be successful. Since Apex and GHL controllers have become available to the saltwater market at a relatively affordable price range, the goal of smart aquariums is half way done. In fact, these systems may even be better than many so called “smart homes” from my view. Many probes (e.g. temperature, PH, ORP, etc.) and sensors (e.g. water level, leaking, voltage, etc.) help tank owners pre-define and program tank behaviors in a manageable way. Their warning and alert functionality, and cloud service push the smart aquarium boundary in a big way.
Challenges: coral survival rate
But still, coral is a finicky animal and family safety is priceless. We often hear how temperature and alkalinity can cause tank failures. Temperature is easy to measure and adjust with a cooler and a heater, especially with temperature probes connected to the reef controller. Alkalinity has been a totally different story for decades. Luckily, since 2017, Alkalinity monitors became available from companies like Dr. Bridge and GHL. When combined with a remote controllable dosing system, we again push the boundary of smart aquariums.
Challenges: home safety
Tanks bring water and electricity together in one environment and that entails risk. Preventing bad things from happening is one thing and owning high quality devices help, knowing about it when it happens is another. Spending 50% more for top quality equipment and doubling the effort for tank robustness are gradually become acceptable concepts. Preventing pump failure does not simply mean replacing the pump when you are not around; there could be bigger problems than the couple hundred dollars you save for buying a cheap pump.
You love your tank, every day you meticulously maintain, feed, test and correct, and fix small things before it becomes chaos. But you also want a break and tanks obviously can’t take breaks. Feeding and providing nutrition are low hanging fruits if you have programmable dosing pumps and feeders. Latest generation dosing pumps such as GHL and Apex, all provide cloud services which allow you to control them via mobile phone even from thousands of miles away. Some may say maintenance is not needed for short periods of time, but with extended vacation, some obstacles start to show up. Algae growth on glass, top-off, element consumption ratio change, etc. There are robot algae scrapers available today that may help with algae cleaning, but it did not bother most of us much anyway when nobody is at home. For OTA, some reefers are very successful connecting a RO/DI source to the tank OTA system directly, while others choose a bigger RD/DI container isolated from RO/DI system to avoid equipment failure. Either way has pros and cons, but both are easy enough. I chose to minimize maintenance and to monitor tank condition in real time via IPCams, in case I need to shut off the entire tank’s power, abandoning the tank but keeping the house safe. True experience, after hearing about an earthquake that hit a local town in Taiwan during my vacation, I was able to check these IPCams to comfort myself.
Room to improve
Saying that, there is always room for improvement from a commercial solution. I chose an Apex controller equipped with an AFS feeder, WaV wave makers, DoS dosing pumps. However, alone they are not enough to reach my “smart aquarium” goal. Apex so far has no Alkalinity probe, so as I said earlier, I choose Dr. Bridge’s KHG to auto test Alkalinity (fig. 1) and link to Apex Fusion for daily access and alert trigger; AFS is a good little toy, but it won’t tell you when a feeder box is empty, so my friends made a weight sensor to read AFS weight daily and text me when it is empty (fig. 2); In general, dosing pump quickly replace calcium reactor position in many reefers’ heart, and Apex DoS is capable to calculate supplement left in container. But no way to count drop in real time, nor to know if tube clog and the supplement does not reach tank, but your floor. Here is a prototype drop counter (fig. 3), detect each drop at the last distance from tube to tank water. Of course, due to quality and robustness concern, my DIY items are limited to non-invasive, data reading only type of devices or tools.
Future and conclusion
I believe we can expect even more smart aquarium concepts, devices, and solutions to come to the market in the near future instead of DIY projects like mine. I won’t be surprised at all if a company like Neptune Apex, who now has access to millions of users’ data (I guess all tanks using Apex Fusion will have their tank data streamed to the Apex server), will announce a killer application to change our way of reefing. Companies like Zeovit, AquaForest will further provide best coral color improvement recipes. Traditional saltwater test kit providers such as Hanna and Salifert will quickly answer to the threat from newcomers like Neptune, GHL, and Dr. Bridge who try to redefine our daily test experience. Let’s expect these days in the future.
Joseph Chi a.k.a @shih87