Solution to rocks leeching phosphate

[bensoo00]

I am moving my setup from a 125 to a 180, and I run elevated phosphates. It has been like this for a while, as I have been away from home. Now that I am back, I can get back to maintanence, but I wanted to move the tank downstairs and upgrade while I'm at it, so heres my question: I know that my rocks and sand will probably have a lot of phosphate bound to it, so should I set up the 180, put in all the rocks and (should i get new sand?), and then cycle it while running my turf scrubber to scrub the phosphates out? I understand that I would need nitrates in there as well to get that algae growth in the scrubber, but I'd rather not throw away hundreds of dollars of rocks. I also have GFO if it would be better to just cycle and then run ***** GFO and just strip the water, but I dont want to introduce cyano or any other nasty stuff.

Also side note but am I overstocked? I've had the same stock for about 3 years in this tank, and I've never really given it a thought, but I had a lot of mechanical filtration when the tank wasn't unmaintained, and the parameters were okay. I can always part with the clowns to a different tank I have running.

I just want to start off this tank clean and keep it that way.

Yellow tang
kole tang
foxface rabbitfish
diamond goby
filefish

pair of ocelaris
pair of skunk
pair of clarkiis (they all coexist)

melanurus wrasse
six line wrasse
citron clown goby (who i now realize is bothering all my coral and eating their slime)
starry blenny
longnose hawkfish
red hawkfish

spiny lobster
snowflake eel

 

[Dread Pirate Dave]

I am moving my setup from a 125 to a 180, and I run elevated phosphates. It has been like this for a while, as I have been away from home. Now that I am back, I can get back to maintanence, but I wanted to move the tank downstairs and upgrade while I'm at it, so heres my question: I know that my rocks and sand will probably have a lot of phosphate bound to it, so should I set up the 180, put in all the rocks and (should i get new sand?), and then cycle it while running my turf scrubber to scrub the phosphates out? I understand that I would need nitrates in there as well to get that algae growth in the scrubber, but I'd rather not throw away hundreds of dollars of rocks. I also have GFO if it would be better to just cycle and then run ***** GFO and just strip the water, but I dont want to introduce cyano or any other nasty stuff.

Also side note but am I overstocked? I've had the same stock for about 3 years in this tank, and I've never really given it a thought, but I had a lot of mechanical filtration when the tank wasn't unmaintained, and the parameters were okay. I can always part with the clowns to a different tank I have running.

I just want to start off this tank clean and keep it that way.

Yellow tang
kole tang
foxface rabbitfish
diamond goby
filefish

pair of ocelaris
pair of skunk
pair of clarkiis (they all coexist)

melanurus wrasse
six line wrasse
citron clown goby (who i now realize is bothering all my coral and eating their slime)
starry blenny
longnose hawkfish
red hawkfish

spiny lobster
snowflake eel

If I were you I'd toss the rock and replace with live rock. If you're going to restart you may as well restart strong. :)

 

[CBonito]

If I were you I'd toss the rock and replace with live rock. If you're going to restart you may as well restart strong. :)

Especially with all those fish.

 

[bensoo00]

If I were you I'd toss the rock and replace with live rock. If you're going to restart you may as well restart strong. :)

Ah yeah, never used live rock before. Where would I attain some at? Could it be feasible to do a live rock + dry rock mix?

 

[Biokabe]

To get the easier question out of the way:

You have 18 fish of varying sizes and want to put them in a 180. That doesn't seem outrageous to me. Two tangs, but neither get terribly large and are usually happy even in a 75g. A rabbitfish that maybe gets a little big, but not too much for a 180. The rest, other than the eel, are on the smaller and less demanding side, and eels are a little more forgiving since they don't move around as much. So as far as stocking goes, I think you're fine there.

What's your plan for maintaining your current livestock while you do any prep work for your new tank?

As far as your rocks go... well, if I were in your shoes, I would do one of three things:

Option 1: Everything new. Start off right with a full package for your tank from Tampa Bay, plus brand new sand. This would probably be the fastest way to get up and running, but it would also likely be the most expensive option. You could get the new rock in, let it cycle (should be almost instant with Tampa Bay rock) and then move your inhabitants into the new tank.

Option 2: Supplemental + Bleach/Acid Wash. Basically, get some additional live rock from Tampa Bay (40-60 pounds) and use that to start seeding your new tank. While the new rock is starting the cycle for your new tank, do a complete re-cure of your existing rock (here's an old thread talking about the process). That should eliminate everything (beneficial and otherwise, including bound-up phosphates) from your rocks. Then you can reintroduce the rock to your tank, allowing it to be re-colonized with beneficial bacteria from your Tampa Bay rock. After that, move your livestock to the new tank.

Option 2 would be cheaper, but it does assume that you have some place to keep your livestock while the old rock is getting cleaned.

Finally, there's Option 3: Don't overthink it. Add extra rock to your system to fill out the upgrade, move your existing rock into the tank along with your livestock. Just adopt good husbandry practices and allow your parameters to naturally evolve to better levels. If your turf scrubber is sized appropriately, it will slowly pull the phosphates out of your rock as it depletes whatever free phosphates you have in your water.

Personally, I would take option 3. It's totally fine to mix live rock and dry rock, in fact it's one of the best practices especially on a budget. It lets you move your livestock to the new tank without time pressure or finding some place to hold them. And yeah, it doesn't give you that instant gratification of completely eliminating phosphates, but it does something better. Ultimately, if your husbandry is going to lead to elevated phosphates anyhow, then all you're doing by eliminating your current phosphate excess is setting back the clock for when you'll need to deal with it. So if you change your practices now, then in the future you won't have to confront this problem again.

Editing to add: No matter what, get new sand when you move tanks. Sand tends to sequester a lot of chemicals that can be absolutely toxic, and disturbing the sand bed can release those chemicals and cause quite a bit of mortality. You're unlikely to disturb the sand enough to cause problems in normal day-to-day reefing, but moving the sand bed in its entirety tends to release the toxic clouds. It's not a problem in every tank, but it's safest to assume that it will be a problem in yours.

 

[Dread Pirate Dave]

Ah yeah, never used live rock before. Where would I attain some at? Could it be feasible to do a live rock + dry rock mix?

Lots of people here go with Gulf Live Rock https://gulfliverock.com/ or Tampa Bay Live Rock https://tbsaltwater.com/ but I'm not sure keeping any of the high phosphate rock is worth the struggle.

 

[GSPClown94]

What is your current phosphate at?

 

[CBonito]

Ah yeah, never used live rock before. Where would I attain some at? Could it be feasible to do a live rock + dry rock mix?

Yes, you could mix, but it would just be better to go all live.

I started a tank with fake rock, "live" sand in a bag which is a huge scam and I had to plumb in a live mud refugium and buy like 7 lbs of live sand to get my tank to properly mature. It could have taken a few months, but it took like a year. And I killed some corals on the way too. That would have never happened either. Finally at the 2 year mark I can say the tank is well-established.

I did it because I was seeing others do it, while hiding all of the crap that comes along with it in that "Social Media" way they all do it.

I found out!

 

[BryanM]

Pics of current tank?

I went from 100 DT to a 180 DT, and my old tank was over-stocked with rock, so it worked out.

I'm hesitant to say ditch your cycled rock, since it is in fact cycled.

Phosphate leaching is a time and patience game, and I had the most luck lowering mine with GFO.

If you can afford all new live rock, that is definitely a great option. But equally is viable is using your current rock and supplementing with additional live rock.

 

[MnFish1]

I am moving my setup from a 125 to a 180, and I run elevated phosphates. It has been like this for a while, as I have been away from home. Now that I am back, I can get back to maintanence, but I wanted to move the tank downstairs and upgrade while I'm at it, so heres my question: I know that my rocks and sand will probably have a lot of phosphate bound to it, so should I set up the 180, put in all the rocks and (should i get new sand?), and then cycle it while running my turf scrubber to scrub the phosphates out? I understand that I would need nitrates in there as well to get that algae growth in the scrubber, but I'd rather not throw away hundreds of dollars of rocks. I also have GFO if it would be better to just cycle and then run ***** GFO and just strip the water, but I dont want to introduce cyano or any other nasty stuff.

Also side note but am I overstocked? I've had the same stock for about 3 years in this tank, and I've never really given it a thought, but I had a lot of mechanical filtration when the tank wasn't unmaintained, and the parameters were okay. I can always part with the clowns to a different tank I have running.

I just want to start off this tank clean and keep it that way.

Yellow tang
kole tang
foxface rabbitfish
diamond goby
filefish

pair of ocelaris
pair of skunk
pair of clarkiis (they all coexist)

melanurus wrasse
six line wrasse
citron clown goby (who i now realize is bothering all my coral and eating their slime)
starry blenny
longnose hawkfish
red hawkfish

spiny lobster
snowflake eel

Yes to new sand.

I don't think you can know there is a lot of Phosphate leaking from the rock - unless you put the rock in water without fish and food, etc - and measure it. Now - obviously - thats a difficult task.

With every coral addition or anything - you will add 'cyano' or 'other things' - I would not concentrate on that. I would concentrate on keeping the correct conditions to prevent -which is difficult with a tank change (or can be),

To answer your question - the normal answer is an acid bath for the rock - to remove the surface layer - but - I'm not sure you can do that - it will kill any bacteria in the rock that you want to use. Short term - I don't think there is a way to remove PO4 without killing the bacteria.

I would scrub any algae off each piece of rock, however and if you need to use GFO - use it - note that PO4 Is not always the enemy. If I were you I would consider just transferring your entire system to the new tank - over a couple hour period - matching the usual parameters - and giving the rocks a scrub.

 

[edd59]

lanthinum chloride will clean that phosphate up and cheap

 

[MnFish1]

lanthinum chloride will clean that phosphate up and cheap

It can - however - in the case of the poster - 1) there is no evidence that the rock has PO4, and 2) if there is its long-term. Lanthanum is not a secret weapon - it works as well as GFO . In certain circumstances it is not as good - like this one - where PO4 is bound to rock. The person who would know is @Randy Holmes-Farley (an expert in PO4 and other things as well of course) but he does not necessarily follow the tags. Maybe he will weigh in

 

[BryanM]

lanthinum chloride will clean that phosphate up and cheap

This is more difficult than it sounds.

I've tried dosing it in to a filter sock with mixed results.

I know people who have dosed it into skimmers, and I simply cannot trust that the skimmer will catch all of the fallout, and I have 5 tangs.

LC does work, but it is not without risks or challenges.

 

[LiverockRocks]

To get the easier question out of the way:

You have 18 fish of varying sizes and want to put them in a 180. That doesn't seem outrageous to me. Two tangs, but neither get terribly large and are usually happy even in a 75g. A rabbitfish that maybe gets a little big, but not too much for a 180. The rest, other than the eel, are on the smaller and less demanding side, and eels are a little more forgiving since they don't move around as much. So as far as stocking goes, I think you're fine there.

What's your plan for maintaining your current livestock while you do any prep work for your new tank?

As far as your rocks go... well, if I were in your shoes, I would do one of three things:

Option 1: Everything new. Start off right with a full package for your tank from Tampa Bay, plus brand new sand. This would probably be the fastest way to get up and running, but it would also likely be the most expensive option. You could get the new rock in, let it cycle (should be almost instant with Tampa Bay rock) and then move your inhabitants into the new tank.

Option 2: Supplemental + Bleach/Acid Wash. Basically, get some additional live rock from Tampa Bay (40-60 pounds) and use that to start seeding your new tank. While the new rock is starting the cycle for your new tank, do a complete re-cure of your existing rock (here's an old thread talking about the process). That should eliminate everything (beneficial and otherwise, including bound-up phosphates) from your rocks. Then you can reintroduce the rock to your tank, allowing it to be re-colonized with beneficial bacteria from your Tampa Bay rock. After that, move your livestock to the new tank.

Option 2 would be cheaper, but it does assume that you have some place to keep your livestock while the old rock is getting cleaned.

Finally, there's Option 3: Don't overthink it. Add extra rock to your system to fill out the upgrade, move your existing rock into the tank along with your livestock. Just adopt good husbandry practices and allow your parameters to naturally evolve to better levels. If your turf scrubber is sized appropriately, it will slowly pull the phosphates out of your rock as it depletes whatever free phosphates you have in your water.

Personally, I would take option 3. It's totally fine to mix live rock and dry rock, in fact it's one of the best practices especially on a budget. It lets you move your livestock to the new tank without time pressure or finding some place to hold them. And yeah, it doesn't give you that instant gratification of completely eliminating phosphates, but it does something better. Ultimately, if your husbandry is going to lead to elevated phosphates anyhow, then all you're doing by eliminating your current phosphate excess is setting back the clock for when you'll need to deal with it. So if you change your practices now, then in the future you won't have to confront this problem again.

Editing to add: No matter what, get new sand when you move tanks. Sand tends to sequester a lot of chemicals that can be absolutely toxic, and disturbing the sand bed can release those chemicals and cause quite a bit of mortality. You're unlikely to disturb the sand enough to cause problems in normal day-to-day reefing, but moving the sand bed in its entirety tends to release the toxic clouds. It's not a problem in every tank, but it's safest to assume that it will be a problem in yours.

Well said, completely agree.

 

[edd59]

It can - however - in the case of the poster - 1) there is no evidence that the rock has PO4, and 2) if there is its long-term. Lanthanum is not a secret weapon - it works as well as GFO . In certain circumstances it is not as good - like this one - where PO4 is bound to rock. The person who would know is @Randy Holmes-Farley (an expert in PO4 and other things as well of course) but he does not necessarily follow the tags. Maybe he will weigh in

a lot cheaper than gfo.
i used it in my tank with new sand and phosphate bound rock took about 5 weeks to go from .29 to .00.
went a little too low. thats personnel experience not reading forums

 

[edd59]

It can - however - in the case of the poster - 1) there is no evidence that the rock has PO4, and 2) if there is its long-term. Lanthanum is not a secret weapon - it works as well as GFO . In certain circumstances it is not as good - like this one - where PO4 is bound to rock. The person who would know is @Randy Holmes-Farley (an expert in PO4 and other things as well of course) but he does not necessarily follow the tags. Maybe he will weigh in

a lot cheaper than gfo.
i used it in my tank with new sand and phosphate bound rock took about 5 weeks to go from .29 to .00.
went a little too low. thats personnel experience not reading forums

 

[areefer01]

Lanthanum works when properly administered but some hobbyist have reported issues with Zebrasoma tangs. There are plenty of threads around the web talking about best practices. Just need to be aware of the risk(s).

GFO has its own baggage in my opinion such as cost and extra manual effort to rinse/clean before use and after replacing.

 

[BonnieB]

If I were you I'd toss the rock and replace with live rock. If you're going to restart you may as well restart strong. :)

Ah yeah, never used live rock before. Where would I attain some at? Could it be feasible to do a live rock + dry rock mix?

I’ll only add that if you have a trusted LFS, they should have cycled live rock that you can start your new system with. I opted for that when I decided to upgrade rather that buying online. You could also place a couple of your old pieces in the sump to seed additionally but be aware you might be bringing unwanted stuff with it. If you don’t have a refugium in your new set up (like me) it was recommended to me to add rock to the sump to give copepods a place to grow and thrive. FWIW!

 

[SantaMonica]

Phosphate flow out of rocks

Many people, when they get their nutrient exports going strong for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate tests have been lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).

Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.

Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object on the floor, and your windows as your export filter device. As phosphate is exported out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water to the export device. This continues until the phosphate level in the rocks and water are the same again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow. It's like a fast flowing river, but a shallow one. And the flow out of the rocks can be much more phosphate than how much you are feeding each day.

This flow out of the rocks causes an interesting thing to happen. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where the light is. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that your tank was getting worse. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:

1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.

2. Your phosphate export device is new and strong, maybe only a few months old.

3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.

4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.

5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.


Most people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough, it can. How long does this continue? For 2 to 6 months, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how strong your export is, and how many other phosphate-removing filters you have (macros, GFO, carbon dosing, etc). But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Most people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough, it can. How long does this continue? For 2 to 6 months, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how strong your export is, and how many other phosphate-removing filters you have (macros, GFO, carbon dosing, etc).

While I think much of this analogy is correct, I think the above statement About flow “into” rocks is not the best description. Phosphate is binding to rock/water interfaces. Even a flat plane of aragonite will bind a lot of phosphate. It does not flow in and out of the rock itself, but onto and off of the rock water interfaces.

Yes, some of the rock surface is down in pores and it will take longer for that phosphate to get in or out.

But I think this process happens a lot faster than you are crediting. It can bind in hours, not months, and the release will happen on a similar time frame. Binding tests show the speed and extent.