Some late night Triton thoughts.

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joefishUC

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I spend a lot of time talking to reefers about Triton so I figured why not share some thoughts on the theories behind Triton with you all here. Many of these thoughts are my own after working with the wonderful products and method for several years now.

Triton and nutrients- Regarding the filtration component that is triton- one would setup the system to include a large algae filter, first inline from the output of the overflow box, followed by the skimmer and fluidized reactor section followed last by the section housing the return pump. Nice and simple.

I would use a very small amount of GFO and keep the po4 levels on the low side while the tank is maturing. Think of your food as phosphate and adjust the amounts you feed to control the level of po4 in the tank while using only a small and consistent amount of gfo to assist in its removal. The use of a quality gfo like Rowa Phos will possibly prevent the introduction of less stable forms of iron and other nasties from contaminating the water chemistry. Using a lot of gfo then feeding heavier to maintain slightly elevated levels of po4 will be tough to balance. Too much power on either side of the equation. Triton aims to keep things simple by frontloading the system with nutrients in the form of food then letting nature process, breakdown and recycle the waste as a form of needed energy. Once we have a well oiled system in place with the right macro algae, bacteria and a stable population of animals in the tank we can ease up on other forms of maintenance like water changes and the use of micron socks until there is arguably no difference if using them or not. The food is eaten by the fish and coral, the extra making its way into the algae filter where it is further broken down by physical forces, bacteria and the algae. Bacteria coats the food particles and detritus and if these make it past the skimmer and into the return pump, then they are blasted back into the display tank to be hopefully fed to the corals they come in contact with. On the backend of this "system" is the small amount of carbon and gfo keeping things from getting too far out of hand should something go awry with the system. These should not be viewed as the reason why a triton tank is successful. The success comes from mature natural processes.

I think of a new triton tank as a bicycle starting from a dead stop. There is a series of training wheels that get stripped away in layers allowing the system to gain speed as it wobbles less, sheds weight and straightens out. (weight is maintenance practices for this analogy) First thing to go is the micron socks, then the detritus siphoning from the sump and display tank, then the water changes and finally the heavier use of gfo and water testing. Of course nature doesn't always work in predictable ways and there are many variables that affect the outcome of a given system but in theory this is how a triton tank could mature. One can expect to see some cyano, maybe some hair algae in the display, some diatoms, etc as the tank goes through its maturing cycles. Don't be discouraged. There isn't a method out there that has zero hiccups. The idea is to remain calm, believe in the system you have created and offer input to it where needed.

The goal, and I have seen this on many amazing Triton tanks, is to create a system that achieves success by focusing on stability by way of minimizing variables. This is key. By using only the essential components of the tried and true sps dominated reef tank can one create a system that is largely replicable by the masses. Sure people can and are encouraged to tweak their individual system to squeeze the most horsepower out of it but the method can only be such if it is stripped down to a common denominator of working parts. I think of the algae bed as the huge suspension system of the tank. It is there to absorb most things you can throw at it. If an auto-feeder malfunctions or an unexplained coral die-off happens it is there to assist. It can expand and convert those nutrients into sugars for the corals in real time. If there is a nutrient drought occuring in the tank then the algae growth will slow down and even possibly die off a bit releasing some needed nutrients into the system. It may not be as fast acting as a well running bio pellet reactor but I feel it sure is more forgiving than the latter in the event of a filter mishap.

Triton and dosing: When people receive their ICP tests and see how certain levels have drifted pretty far out of whack they often contact me to help get things back inline. Without knocking any method or product it is quite logical to think that the less we do in terms of dosing, water exchanging, etc the less potential for drifts in water chemistry from NSW levels. Working hard with them to get things back inline, once they do they of course want to do everything in their power to keep things good (green on the ICP test)
This is where using something like the Base Elementz comes into play. It is a four part mix of major and minor ions that gets dosed throughout the day (typically by a precision doser like DOS) to replenish those ions lost via the systems filter and animal components. It is formulated to work with a triton system in that certain traces are spiked in the mix knowing that things like carbon, the algae bed and the skimmer will be removing them. Since all four parts are dosed exactly the same amount (enough to maintain the alkalinity at 8dkh), the ionic balance is largely maintained. No other form of regular mineral dosing is needed. Just small corrections should be done once things are stable. Water changes, calcium reactors, kalkwasser dosing, etc are all redundant and will most likely throw off the balance and are strongly not recommended when using the Base Elementz. Since every system is different, each system will start to slowly shift away from ionic balance as the minerals are removed from a given system. This shift away from balance should be less than in a typical reef tank where typically just the calcium and alkalinity are dosed daily and the other minerals dosed when they are felt like or tested for typically with hobby kits. Routine water changes will replenish lost ions as well but you can see how this is a gross way of replacing ions that are lost constantly throughout every day. This is the opposite of riding that wave or chemical stability that is so present on an actual coral reef. At least triton comes close by dosing things all day long. The only thing better would be to exchange water constantly from a known, high quality trusted saltwater source. If you were to exchange enough water constantly to maintain alkalinity then you would also arguably be replenishing most if not all of the other needed ions as well in a most balanced formula. The daily or constant water change cannot be knocked aside from its largely impractical appeal.

I will be setting up my 1200 gallon reef tank at home in the next few weeks and will share the progress pics here with you all. It will be a super simple Triton setup. Thanks for reading!
 

Szathmary

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Hi JoefishUC, have you seen my post already: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-triton-experiences-so-far.261180/
The 1200 gallon sounds very ambitious. I look forward to hearing about the progress.

certain traces are spiked in the mix knowing that things like carbon, the algae bed and the skimmer will be removing them

How do you know this? I would be surprised since it is very difficult to calculate an average of how much the AL99, the GAC, the skimmer and the refugium consume in each individual tank. And even if there was such a magical number it would be still very likely that in tanks - out of the average- this dosing would create a problem on the long run. Probably Base Elementz has certain elements (let's say iron - but I do not know) which is essential for the algae but other ballings do not have it in the mix. Or it has such forms or compounds of certain elements which is preferred by the algae.
 
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joefishUC

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Hi JoefishUC, have you seen my post already: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-triton-experiences-so-far.261180/
The 1200 gallon sounds very ambitious. I look forward to hearing about the progress.



How do you know this? I would be surprised since it is very difficult to calculate an average of how much the AL99, the GAC, the skimmer and the refugium consume in each individual tank. And even if there was such a magical number it would be still very likely that in tanks - out of the average- this dosing would create a problem on the long run. Probably Base Elementz has certain elements (let's say iron - but I do not know) which is essential for the algae but other ballings do not have it in the mix. Or it has such forms or compounds of certain elements which is preferred by the algae.

Hello. I know this becuase Triton is very transparent with this fact. The reason behind using the triton 4 part mix is to replace things used in a system of a certain design. The contents within the Base Elementz is not intended to match NSW ratios of ions but rather it is a mix designed to be used with the triton method where certain things will be used and stripped from the system quicker than others. The hope is to dose enough of this and that to end up close to where you want to be. Things like Iron and Iodine for example, are probably boosted in the formula to account for rapid usage and uptake within the aquarium. Since every tank is different there cannot be a magic number that works for every tank and this is where side dosing comes in. If a reef tank is setup with gac, gfo, skimming and a properly sized refugium, (the triton method style) then this is the best match for a product like the Base Elementz. The latter will put you in the general ballpark of where you would want to be in terms of acceptable parameter ranges. In a perfect world the rest should be just minor tweaking.
Also remember that Ehsan has tweaked and changed the BE formula many times to make it better. He also has the data from well over 10,000 ICP tests from which to pull data and make formula based decisions on.
 

d2mini

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He also has the data from well over 10,000 ICP tests from which to pull data and make formula based decisions on.

Hey wait a minute... I'm paying 50 bucks per test so he can use my information for his own benefit? He should be paying me! :D ;)
 

Szathmary

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He also has the data from well over 10,000 ICP tests from which to pull data and make formula based decisions on.

I think the assumption that Triton has made 10.000 ICP tests so far has nothing to do with what they put into the Base Elementz since apart from the net volume of our tanks they know nothing about our filtration nor about our livestock.

I have one of the early manuals of Triton. I attached 3 interesting figures. What it says:
1. 11% of the Base Elementz is "Stabilizers and complexing agents" I'm not a chemist but this may require lot of fine tuning to avoid the precipitation and degradation of the elements. For example in the old version of the Base Elementz the first component was a liquid while today it is powder.
2. The other 2 figures confirm that Base Elementz are not able to raise or dilute the level of elements above or below a certain level without influencing the salinity of the water. This is exactly the original concept of Hans Werner Balling. If it was not the case people like I'm would notice increase of certain elements if they did not strictly follow the manual - which I do not strictly follow.

I think Triton is a great product and I recommend it to everybody but let's not say that their Base Elementz product is more than a very well designed, high purity and reliable Balling.

Clipboard01.png Clipboard02.png Clipboard03.png
 
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joefishUC

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I think the assumption that Triton has made 10.000 ICP tests so far has nothing to do with what they put into the Base Elementz since apart from the net volume of our tanks they know nothing about our filtration nor about our livestock.

I have one of the early manuals of Triton. I attached 3 interesting figures. What it says:
1. 11% of the Base Elementz is "Stabilizers and complexing agents" I'm not a chemist but this may require lot of fine tuning to avoid the precipitation and degradation of the elements. For example in the old version of the Base Elementz the first component was a liquid while today it is powder.
2. The other 2 figures confirm that Base Elementz are not able to raise or dilute the level of elements above or below a certain level without influencing the salinity of the water. This is exactly the original concept of Hans Werner Balling. If it was not the case people like I'm would notice increase of certain elements if they did not strictly follow the manual - which I do not strictly follow.

I think Triton is a great product and I recommend it to everybody but let's not say that their Base Elementz product is more than a very well designed, high purity and reliable Balling.

Clipboard01.png Clipboard02.png Clipboard03.png


I think you are not looking completely at the entire picture of what the base elements are and how they are to be used on an algae based system. Sure it is a high purity form of balling like you suggested but it is a bit more than that too. Having access to over 10,000 ICP tests, many of which are systems he knows run on the base elements, allows him to tweak the formula to best create the net balance and results we all want. Why would he not use this data? It is free and at his fingertips. I'm not saying that the ICP machine takes every result and spits it into an ever changing equation that adjusts the BE formula as more tests are done. I'm simply saying that as time goes on and he notices trends like low iodine, molybdenum, iron, etc from samples he's tested, he can and will make informed improvements to the formula. The base elements are intended to be used on triton method aquariums with large algae filters and the new Reef Supplements line (base elements without certain boosted traces and algae nutrients) are for people not running a triton method tank. How he derives each formula is based on many factors, one being the vast experience in testing saltwater of many types.

Regarding the raising of salinity- The amount of traces added to the base elements to help counteract the removal by skimming, gfo and carbon is probably negliable and not easily noticed on testing as you suggest. Iron for example dissapates quickly in seawater and is hardly ever reported on an ICP test. This doesn't mean it isn't present of course. It takes a lot of iron present in seawater to show up on an ICP report. More than what most systems can use up regardless of whether someone is running an algae filter or not. If he was to add a considerable amount of these things than too many people would report elevated levels. People can easily add but not so easily remove unwanted things.

Lastly, regarding the manipulation of ion concentration in additive mixes to produce a satisfying net result is not a new concept. Example- Many salt manufacturers spike the heck out of their dry mixes in hopes of replenishing ions lost between water changes. Their belief is that a small weekly partial water change should replenish most of the traces used up during the period of time between water changes. A crude but somewhat effective approach. I didn't mention this earlier but I am the owner of Triton US and Unique Corals and have seen many ICP test results confirming this. I have also spent hours on the phone chatting with Ehsan about these very subjects.

Ehsan and co will be in town in a few weeks for Macna and I will discuss some of these topics with him to gain further clarity. I will report back my findings!
 
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joefishUC

joefishUC

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I'm sorry to hear that. As reseller it might be difficult for you to be objective.
Nah, thats not me mate. ;) I shoot the **** straight as an arrow. Always did. It's the only way to be.


These topics you and I are discussing have little to do with personal view and being objective but more to do with the reality of how the product and manufacturer truly operate. As I mentioned, when I talk to Ehsan next if anything I have stated was misunderstood from conversations I had with him I will gladly reply here with updates.
 

Khalifa Alhaddad

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I spend a lot of time talking to reefers about Triton so I figured why not share some thoughts on the theories behind Triton with you all here. Many of these thoughts are my own after working with the wonderful products and method for several years now.

Triton and nutrients- Regarding the filtration component that is triton- one would setup the system to include a large algae filter, first inline from the output of the overflow box, followed by the skimmer and fluidized reactor section followed last by the section housing the return pump. Nice and simple.

I would use a very small amount of GFO and keep the po4 levels on the low side while the tank is maturing. Think of your food as phosphate and adjust the amounts you feed to control the level of po4 in the tank while using only a small and consistent amount of gfo to assist in its removal. The use of a quality gfo like Rowa Phos will possibly prevent the introduction of less stable forms of iron and other nasties from contaminating the water chemistry. Using a lot of gfo then feeding heavier to maintain slightly elevated levels of po4 will be tough to balance. Too much power on either side of the equation. Triton aims to keep things simple by frontloading the system with nutrients in the form of food then letting nature process, breakdown and recycle the waste as a form of needed energy. Once we have a well oiled system in place with the right macro algae, bacteria and a stable population of animals in the tank we can ease up on other forms of maintenance like water changes and the use of micron socks until there is arguably no difference if using them or not. The food is eaten by the fish and coral, the extra making its way into the algae filter where it is further broken down by physical forces, bacteria and the algae. Bacteria coats the food particles and detritus and if these make it past the skimmer and into the return pump, then they are blasted back into the display tank to be hopefully fed to the corals they come in contact with. On the backend of this "system" is the small amount of carbon and gfo keeping things from getting too far out of hand should something go awry with the system. These should not be viewed as the reason why a triton tank is successful. The success comes from mature natural processes.

I think of a new triton tank as a bicycle starting from a dead stop. There is a series of training wheels that get stripped away in layers allowing the system to gain speed as it wobbles less, sheds weight and straightens out. (weight is maintenance practices for this analogy) First thing to go is the micron socks, then the detritus siphoning from the sump and display tank, then the water changes and finally the heavier use of gfo and water testing. Of course nature doesn't always work in predictable ways and there are many variables that affect the outcome of a given system but in theory this is how a triton tank could mature. One can expect to see some cyano, maybe some hair algae in the display, some diatoms, etc as the tank goes through its maturing cycles. Don't be discouraged. There isn't a method out there that has zero hiccups. The idea is to remain calm, believe in the system you have created and offer input to it where needed.

The goal, and I have seen this on many amazing Triton tanks, is to create a system that achieves success by focusing on stability by way of minimizing variables. This is key. By using only the essential components of the tried and true sps dominated reef tank can one create a system that is largely replicable by the masses. Sure people can and are encouraged to tweak their individual system to squeeze the most horsepower out of it but the method can only be such if it is stripped down to a common denominator of working parts. I think of the algae bed as the huge suspension system of the tank. It is there to absorb most things you can throw at it. If an auto-feeder malfunctions or an unexplained coral die-off happens it is there to assist. It can expand and convert those nutrients into sugars for the corals in real time. If there is a nutrient drought occuring in the tank then the algae growth will slow down and even possibly die off a bit releasing some needed nutrients into the system. It may not be as fast acting as a well running bio pellet reactor but I feel it sure is more forgiving than the latter in the event of a filter mishap.

Triton and dosing: When people receive their ICP tests and see how certain levels have drifted pretty far out of whack they often contact me to help get things back inline. Without knocking any method or product it is quite logical to think that the less we do in terms of dosing, water exchanging, etc the less potential for drifts in water chemistry from NSW levels. Working hard with them to get things back inline, once they do they of course want to do everything in their power to keep things good (green on the ICP test)
This is where using something like the Base Elementz comes into play. It is a four part mix of major and minor ions that gets dosed throughout the day (typically by a precision doser like DOS) to replenish those ions lost via the systems filter and animal components. It is formulated to work with a triton system in that certain traces are spiked in the mix knowing that things like carbon, the algae bed and the skimmer will be removing them. Since all four parts are dosed exactly the same amount (enough to maintain the alkalinity at 8dkh), the ionic balance is largely maintained. No other form of regular mineral dosing is needed. Just small corrections should be done once things are stable. Water changes, calcium reactors, kalkwasser dosing, etc are all redundant and will most likely throw off the balance and are strongly not recommended when using the Base Elementz. Since every system is different, each system will start to slowly shift away from ionic balance as the minerals are removed from a given system. This shift away from balance should be less than in a typical reef tank where typically just the calcium and alkalinity are dosed daily and the other minerals dosed when they are felt like or tested for typically with hobby kits. Routine water changes will replenish lost ions as well but you can see how this is a gross way of replacing ions that are lost constantly throughout every day. This is the opposite of riding that wave or chemical stability that is so present on an actual coral reef. At least triton comes close by dosing things all day long. The only thing better would be to exchange water constantly from a known, high quality trusted saltwater source. If you were to exchange enough water constantly to maintain alkalinity then you would also arguably be replenishing most if not all of the other needed ions as well in a most balanced formula. The daily or constant water change cannot be knocked aside from its largely impractical appeal.

I will be setting up my 1200 gallon reef tank at home in the next few weeks and will share the progress pics here with you all. It will be a super simple Triton setup. Thanks for reading!
All the best
 

Salty1962

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Has anyone tried the system with just an ATS, instead of macro algae, verses macro only?
 

dgrigor02

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I use ATS as main filtration no skimmer. I use the Triton tests but I use my own mostly diy supplements to maintain elements ( except for zinc, vanadium I use the Triton supplements ). Been running two years the near zero water change ( only water changes is from spills, selling frags, cleaning the sump, and 1 exception where Fenbendazole got into tank and had to do water change to dilute it ). Been running ATS for over 5 years. My ATS have no problems maintaining undetectable nitrate, usually .06-.08ppm phosphates. Easily manipulate phosphate lower ( even to non-detectable using Hanna ULR phosphorus checker ) by food reduction or by adding KN03 to increase algae production.

Using straight up the Triton only supplments you may have to tweak some element seperate from the Core since you are exporting algae regularly. I can't imagaine a scrubber working without exporting algae becuase of the limited space and fast growth.
 
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mazoli

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I use ATS as main filtration no skimmer. I use the Triton tests but I use my own mostly diy supplements to maintain elements ( except for zinc, vanadium I use the Triton supplements ). Been running two years the near zero water change ( only water changes is from spills, selling frags, cleaning the sump, and 1 exception where Fenbendazole got into tank and had to do water change to dilute it ). Been running ATS for over 5 years. My ATS have no problems maintaining undetectable nitrate, usually .06-.08ppm phosphates. Easily manipulate phosphate lower ( even to non-detectable using Hanna ULR phosphorus checker ) by food reduction or by adding KN03 to increase algae production.

Using straight up the Triton only supplments you may have to tweak some element seperate from the Core since you are exporting algae regularly. I can't imagaine a scrubber working without exporting algae becuase of the limited space and fast growth.

Hi @dgrigor02 , could you please share some details about your diy suppelments? What are you using, supplementing? Thanks.
 

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