Someone please help me figure this out.

[Daveb300]

I have around 18 fish. I used three QT tanks while they were in quarantine. A 55, 90 and a 20 long. All have been up and running and established for about 10 months. I have moved most of my fish over to my display tank last month by using bio media from the already established tanks. All the tanks were treated simultaneously with copper and prazipro. They finished 35 days of copper power at therapeutic level in November. I haven't seen a white spot for four months. I feel the ich has been a eradicate. I think the problem I am having is with flukes. I assume that flukes is the problem. It seems I just can't get rid of them. All tanks have been through 3 doses of prazipro at the intervals suggested by the temperature chart. I redosed every 7 days for three doses. Then it seem about a month later I see the fish scratching at their gills. So I dosed prazipro again but this time no water changes in between doses. Three doses back to back every 7 days. So the other day I see about three of my fish scratching their gills again. Two in my display and one orange shoulder tang I still have in the 55g QT tank. I'm like here we go again. I have no Idea what to do. I started prazipro again. I haven't seen a white spot in months so I don't believe it could be ich. I don't believe it can be Trichodina because it is easy killed by copper and would have been wiped out along with the ich when I dosed copper power. So my only conclusion is more flukes. Is there a better way to kill flukes? Should I use something other than prazipro? I really don’t know what to do next.

 

[fishguy242]

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Daveb300]

@Jay Hemdal maybe you can shed some light on my situation.

 

[Daveb300]

I will add that I haven't lost a fish although I did see my flame angel scratching a lot yesterday. Prazipro had been in the tank for 24 hours. Ammonia is zero in my display and 55. Ph is 8.1. All fish are breathing normal and I haven't seen any gasping for air or swimming into powerheads. The only symptom I see is scratching at their gills. Not all of them are Scratching. I have seen about four of them do this. Three in my display and one in QT. All fish are eating good. I feed about half a sheet of seaweed with selcon and vitamin c everyday along with two feedings of mysis shrimp. I have hippo tang, a yellow tang and a gold rim in my display and if there was ich I believe I would see it on one of them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I will add that I haven't lost a fish although I did see my flame angel scratching a lot yesterday. Prazipro had been in the tank for 24 hours. Ammonia is zero in my display and 55. Ph is 8.1. All fish are breathing normal and I haven't seen any gasping for air or swimming into powerheads. The only symptom I see is scratching at their gills. Not all of them are Scratching. I have seen about four of them do this. Three in my display and one in QT. All fish are eating good. I feed about half a sheet of seaweed with selcon and vitamin c everyday along with two feedings of mysis shrimp. I have hippo tang, a yellow tang and a gold rim in my display and if there was ich I believe I would see it on one of them.

I doubt it is Trichodina - although that protozoan is supposedly able to infect marine fish, I've only seen in in FW fish.

Chronic gill scratching is something that is reported a lot here, and it doesn't always respond to praziquantel. I'm not sure what the cause is in all of these cases. Is it that there is an egg laying gill fluke and the life cycle isn't being broken? Is it a Myxosporidian? Some people think it is idiopathic - no real disease cause, more of a learned behavior (seems to be the case with some royal grammas for example).

I typically use 9 days as the spacing for prazi.

There is another issue: it turns out that praziquantel is preferentially fed upon by some heterotrophic bacteria. These bacteria grow in numbers with each prazi application. They eventually are able to consume the prazi as fast as you are adding it. This requires increased dosing, and that is risky as there is no way to tell exactly how much prazi is still active.

I don't suppose your display is a FOWLR? If it were, you could consider a hyposalinity treatment.

Jay

 

[Daveb300]

I doubt it is Trichodina - although that protozoan is supposedly able to infect marine fish, I've only seen in in FW fish.

Chronic gill scratching is something that is reported a lot here, and it doesn't always respond to praziquantel. I'm not sure what the cause is in all of these cases. Is it that there is an egg laying gill fluke and the life cycle isn't being broken? Is it a Myxosporidian? Some people think it is idiopathic - no real disease cause, more of a learned behavior (seems to be the case with some royal grammas for example).

I typically use 9 days as the spacing for prazi.

There is another issue: it turns out that praziquantel is preferentially fed upon by some heterotrophic bacteria. These bacteria grow in numbers with each prazi application. They eventually are able to consume the prazi as fast as you are adding it. This requires increased dosing, and that is risky as there is no way to tell exactly how much prazi is still active.

I don't suppose your display is a FOWLR? If it were, you could consider a hyposalinity treatment.

Jay

As of right now it is fish only with marco rock. I do have live rock and a few corals and inverts in their own tank for a 80 day fallow quarantine. My display is 300 gallon (350 total water volume) I can do hypo if thats the only way but I would rather not because that a lot of water.

 

[FiddlersReef]

There is another issue: it turns out that praziquantel is preferentially fed upon by some heterotrophic bacteria. These bacteria grow in numbers with each prazi application. They eventually are able to consume the prazi as fast as you are adding it. This requires increased dosing, and that is risky as there is no way to tell exactly how much prazi is still active.

So if prazi us used in a QT tank, should the QT be completely flushed with a 100% water change in between uses, to eliminate these bacteria? i.e., are they in the water column? Or would it have to be totally scrubbed?

Also, I was planning to move the HOB sponge into the display tank's sump when not using the QT, to keep it active. But if those bacteria are in it, would I be creating a mess? Or am I overthinking it. Your comment just got me wondering.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So if prazi us used in a QT tank, should the QT be completely flushed with a 100% water change in between uses, to eliminate these bacteria? i.e., are they in the water column? Or would it have to be totally scrubbed?

Also, I was planning to move the HOB sponge into the display tank's sump when not using the QT, to keep it active. But if those bacteria are in it, would I be creating a mess? Or am I overthinking it. Your comment just got me wondering.

In a tank that has never been dosed with prazi, you can usually get three effective treatments before the bacteria grows to the point where it affects the dose. you need to completely strip the tank and start it over to rid it of these bacteria. They are persistent - even months after the last prazi treatment, they are still lurking there, ready to consume any new prazi added.

FWIW: this issue is the root cause of all/most of the "prazi resistant" flukes that you hear about.....

Jay

 

[FiddlersReef]

In a tank that has never been dosed with prazi, you can usually get three effective treatments before the bacteria grows to the point where it affects the dose. you need to completely strip the tank and start it over to rid it of these bacteria. They are persistent - even months after the last prazi treatment, they are still lurking there, ready to consume any new prazi added.

FWIW: this issue is the root cause of all/most of the "prazi resistant" flukes that you hear about.....

Jay

Wow... that needs to be added to that pinned QT guide. Since it recommends three doses of prazi a week apart, that means after each complete QT cycle, it needs to be stripped and restarted.

And since I've got a new batch of fish in my QT right now, in the copper treatment portion... can I do a 100% water change with DT water before moving to Prazi treatment? I don't want it to be a waste of time because I didn't scrub it after the last (first) qt cycle.

 

[Daveb300]

In a tank that has never been dosed with prazi, you can usually get three effective treatments before the bacteria grows to the point where it affects the dose. you need to completely strip the tank and start it over to rid it of these bacteria. They are persistent - even months after the last prazi treatment, they are still lurking there, ready to consume any new prazi added.

FWIW: this issue is the root cause of all/most of the "prazi resistant" flukes that you hear about.....

Jay

So will I be able to get three treatments in my display even if the bio media came from my established QT tanks? How does this plan sound? We are going on vacation in three weeks. We have had this vacation planned for a year. My plan is to finish the prazipro treatments and do a water change before we go. I have a few more fish to add to the display when we return from our two week vacation. A Achilles tang, orange shoulder tang and convict tang. After I finish adding the last group of tangs if I need to do hypo then I will do it after all fish are added to the display. This way I can have all the fish in hypo at the same time. After hypo then I will add my live rock that has been in 80 day fallow QT. It will be about 5 to six weeks to do all this. This seem to be in discomfort but I haven't last any. Hopefully I don't lose any fish during this process because it will take a little time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So will I be able to get three treatments in my display even if the bio media came from my established QT tanks? How does this plan sound? We are going on vacation in three weeks. We have had this vacation planned for a year l. My plan is to finish the prazipro treatments and do a water change before we go. I have a few more fish to add to the display when we return from our two week vacation. A Achilles tang, orange shoulder tang and convict tang. After I finish adding the last group of tangs if I need to do hypo then I will do it after all fish are added to the display. This way I can have all the fish in hypo at the same time. After hypo then I will add my live rock that has been in fallow QT. It will be about 5 to six weeks to do all this. This seem to be in discomfort but I haven't last any. Hopefully I don't lose any fish during this process because it will take a little time.

Whups - your display was treated with prazi, right? You need to count the number of treatments the DT got as well.

With pure prazi, you can just double the dose to compensate. You cannot do that with prazipro because of the solvent they use - that cannot be doubled up on.

I wonder if things would be stable enough to carry the fish until you can start hypo?

jay

 

[Daveb300]

Whups - your display was treated with prazi, right? You need to count the number of treatments the DT got as well.

With pure prazi, you can just double the dose to compensate. You cannot do that with prazipro because of the solvent they use - that cannot be doubled up on.

I wonder if things would be stable enough to carry the fish until you can start hypo?

jay

It seem like after everytime I do prazipro they are fine for about 4 to 5 weeks before the scratching starts again. I am hoping they will be ok until we return from vacation and I can add the rest of my fish and do hypo. What is your thoughts on this?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It seem like after everytime I do prazipro they are fine for about 4 to 5 weeks before the scratching starts again. I am hoping they will be ok until we return from vacation and I can add the rest of my fish and do hypo. What is your thoughts on this?

That sure does sound like flukes where the life cycle isn't getting broken, and they return. Not sure how long you will be gone, but leaving the tank in the hands of somebody unfamiliar with the issue may be tricky. One thing - you could have the person send you video's each time they service the tank, so you can see how the fish are doing.

jay

 

[Daveb300]

That sure does sound like flukes where the life cycle isn't getting broken, and they return. Not sure how long you will be gone, but leaving the tank in the hands of somebody unfamiliar with the issue may be tricky. One thing - you could have the person send you video's each time they service the tank, so you can see how the fish are doing.

jay

We are going to be gone two weeks. I am definitely a little nervous leaving my tank. Thank you for the help. I think I understand a little better on whats going on.

 

[Daveb300]

That sure does sound like flukes where the life cycle isn't getting broken, and they return. Not sure how long you will be gone, but leaving the tank in the hands of somebody unfamiliar with the issue may be tricky. One thing - you could have the person send you video's each time they service the tank, so you can see how the fish are doing.

jay

@Jay Hemdal my display tank is on it's 4th week of hypo. I am still seeing scratching by my orange shoulder and gold rim. I took the Salinity down to 1.009 or 12ppt checking with hanna checker and Milwaukee tester and a refractometer. All calibrated. I don't get how it is possible they are still scratching. Can flukes survive hypo? All fish have been through 34 days of copper power prior and I haven't seen one white spot in months. I'm at a loss here. Do some fish just like to scratch? It seems something would be irritating them to make them want to scratch.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal my display tank is on it's 4th week of hypo. I am still seeing scratching by my orange shoulder and gold rim. I took the Salinity down to 1.009 or 12ppt checking with hanna checker and Milwaukee tester and a refractometer. All calibrated. I don't get how it is possible they are still scratching. Can flukes survive hypo? All fish have been through 34 days of copper power prior and I haven't seen one white spot in months. I'm at a loss here. Do some fish just like to scratch? It seems something would be irritating them to make them want to scratch.

Typical marine flukes cannot survive even 1.012 for 30 days. 1.009 should be a slam dunk. The two scenarios would be that the scratching is behavioral (I don't see that myself, but I've heard others have that opinion). The second issue is tough to track down; there are some Capsalid flukes, related to Neobenedenia that are brackish water species, there are also some brackish water gill flukes. These typically don't get into the marine fish supply chain, but they can if the wholesaler or LFS are housing some brackish water killifish, mollies, things like that. I'm not sure how you can screen for those other than a formalin dip (150 ppm for 30 to 45 minutes with aeration) and then look at the dip water under a microscope.

Jay

 

[Daveb300]

Typical marine flukes cannot survive even 1.012 for 30 days. 1.009 should be a slam dunk. The two scenarios would be that the scratching is behavioral (I don't see that myself, but I've heard others have that opinion). The second issue is tough to track down; there are some Capsalid flukes, related to Neobenedenia that are brackish water species, there are also some brackish water gill flukes. These typically don't get into the marine fish supply chain, but they can if the wholesaler or LFS are housing some brackish water killifish, mollies, things like that. I'm not sure how you can screen for those other than a formalin dip (150 ppm for 30 to 45 minutes with aeration) and then look at the dip water under a microscope.

Jay

Can the brackish water flukes survive in full salinity sea water?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can the brackish water flukes survive in full salinity sea water?

Yes, they don't thrive, but they can survive. I know people have discussed "hypersalinity" to treat them, but I think that is more theoretical than practical.

Jay

 

[Daveb300]

Yes, they don't thrive, but they can survive. I know people have discussed "hypersalinity" to treat them, but I think that is more theoretical than practical.

Jay

So I have done copper, prazipro and now hypo. All fish are eating and fat and look healthy. Is this scratching something I should be concerned about?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I have done copper, prazipro and now hypo. All fish are eating and fat and look healthy. Is this scratching something I should be concerned about?

How long has it been since the last treatment ended (the hypo?)
Jay