Stabilizing pH with Kalk in ATO with Apex pH Probe

[JordanM]

Im looking for some feedback here. I do not have an ato currently and dont really want one. What I plan to do is under estimate my evaporation rate and dose that amount with kalk in RODI, so it is kind of like an ATO. I want to do this by using the apex and just telling it to turn an outlet on for a few seconds and then turn off. I want to use a Maxijet 600 reduced down to a 1/4" line. I will see how fast the flow rate is out of the pump at my tank to be able to estimate how long i need to let the pump run each day. I will program the Apex so that if the pH is to high the pump will not turn on to add more kalk. For an overflow sensor I would like to use the AutoAqua Smart Level Security as the last line of defense. Even if the apex tells the pump to come on and fill and if the level is to high the AutoAqua will not allow the pump to turn on. I just want to be able to leave the system for a week at a time and be somewhat stable without intervention. I will underestimate flow as I am ok with some drop in water level. Does anyone see any issues with this design plan?
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/smart-level-security-autoaqua.html

 

[JordanM]

A better option may be the peristaltic dosing pumps from BRS though. My evap rate is very small so i may even be able to get away with the 1.1ml/min but probably will get the 50ml/min to be safe instead of the maxijet:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-top-off-doser-50-ml-per-minute-1.html

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

What you're describing is basically an ATO. It's just operated on a timer instead of a float sensor. There's nothing wrong with this approach, as this is how I do my ATO. Just worth noting.

Having said all that, I personally would not set up the system the way you describe. I'd get a dosing pump of some sort. It can be a BRS pump so you can control it with your Apex, or it can be a stand-alone dosing pump. I don't feel that pH spikes are as much of a concern with limewater in a dosing pump . I personally use limewater and a dosing pump and I have no pH redundancy whatsoever. Dosing pumps are much slower and much more precise than ATOs. Additionally, dosing pumps can stick on, but it's a lot more rare than ATOs sticking on. Programming errors are much more likely to be the problem when using a dosing pump.

 

[landlubber]

I personally wouldn't go this way.
you're estimating evaporation which will vary constantly and using pH as your determination on whether the system gets fed which absolutely will vary. also, an auto top off is more than just a means of adding water; it is a device that helps stabilize your salinity.
you didn't describe why your against an ato or mention anything about the your system size but if its 75 gallons or less a better option imo would be to suck it up and buy a tunze 3155 osmolator and pair it with a tunze 5074 kalk dispenser. you'll get the benefit of having a quality ato (which many consider a necessity for long term success) that works hand in hand with the dispenser and keeps the kalkwasser from ever running through the pump which you may have read is very hard on pumps.

 

[JordanM]

My followup post after the first one i actually mention the dosing pumps and do thing this is a batter option as they will be more accurate. I can also eliminate the peristaltic dosing pump getting stuck on with the apex killing power to the outlet. I will not use pH to determine if the tank gets topped off or not. The pH will be monitored to kill the pump if the pH gets to high from the kalk, which this will most likely never happen. The tank is a 30 gallon all in one that is a quarantine tank for corals. I do not want to put money into an ato and the cheap ones i do not trust. With a dosing pump estimating how much to add i believe i will be able to keep the salinity very stable. Currently i am topping off by hand every other day which is leading to a larger variation that the dosing pump would have if it did this action every day. The only reason i am looking to do this is for on vacations. When i am around if the dosing pump is under dosing do to the underestimating i can manually add more water. This will not be the best system but is there a major place that this can fail?

 

[Drauka99]

Ok, my recommendation would be to study your evap. rate per day for a few days or even better weeks. Then create a dosing schedule either during the night (when ph is usually lower) or all day that doses approximately that amount per day. spread out over whichever time frame you choose. That way the pump is not dumping a large amount of kalk water into the tank every few hours but at measured intervals and smaller amounts. You can then "top off" with regular ro/di to make up the small difference. This is the way I had my last tank using kalk setup. it worked well and I was able to control the amount of kalk added each day to make my addition of 2 part more regulated (and my alk and calcium more in line) To do it this way the 1.1ml/ min pumps are perfect, and you can use the Oscillate code for the outlet to dose the intervals you want.


You will be surprised at how high the kalk will push your ph in a 30 gallon for a brief time. your PH buffer for the shut off will need to be quite high.
Chasing ph is a bad idea BTW

 

[JordanM]

Ok, my recommendation would be to study your evap. rate per day for a few days or even better weeks. Then create a dosing schedule either during the night (when ph is usually lower) or all day that doses approximately that amount per day. spread out over whichever time frame you choose. That way the pump is not dumping a large amount of kalk water into the tank every few hours but at measured intervals and smaller amounts. You can then "top off" with regular ro/di to make up the small difference. This is the way I had my last tank using kalk setup. it worked well and I was able to control the amount of kalk added each day to make my addition of 2 part more regulated (and my alk and calcium more in line) To do it this way the 1.1ml/ min pumps are perfect, and you can use the Oscillate code for the outlet to dose the intervals you want.

Chasing ph is a bad idea BTW

Thanks! This is what I had in mind. Do you have an example of what your code was?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

With a dosing pump estimating how much to add i believe i will be able to keep the salinity very stable. Currently i am topping off by hand every other day which is leading to a larger variation that the dosing pump would have if it did this action every day. The only reason i am looking to do this is for on vacations. When i am around if the dosing pump is under dosing do to the underestimating i can manually add more water. This will not be the best system but is there a major place that this can fail?

As I mentioned, my ATO is actually a dosing pump. It "doses" the same amount of fresh water every hour on the hour. I have it running a little less than I need, so every few days I manually top off with a cup of water. Additionally, I have to keep an eye on the topoff rate when the seasons change. In winter, I need to bump up the rate because colder air is more dry. In the summer, I have to decrease the topoff rate because the air is more moist. It takes a bit of dialing in, but there are no float switches to maintain, and the doser has never stuck on and overdosed freshwater.

 

[Drauka99]

I don't have that exact code handy. This was written when I was using a BRS 50ml/min pump. Which I still use now but am using the ATK module

Here is my ATO code I used back then.

I recently decided to add kalk to my ato reservoir. Looking at the output on Apex my ATO is running about 6 times a day for 10 minutes each time. So ~50ml a minute at 60 minutes is 3000ml a day. I am being generous at 3000ml, its likely more along the lines of 2500ml

I modified the switch names to help keep track of what they are and what they are for. I have been monitoring the sump level as well as monitoring when the log says the ATO is on in my Apex.

Here is my current code. As a basic description, the ATO pump can run for 2 minutes at the top and middle of each hour, UNLESS one of the other states says it should remain off.



Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/002:00/028:00 Then ON
If SumpLo OPEN Then OFF
If SumpHi OPEN Then OFF
If AtoLow OPEN Then OFF
If Sw2 CLOSED Then OFF
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF

SW2 is my tank maintenance override switch, it shuts 95% of the tank down for major cleaning.


For your kalk addition you would basically only need the PH shutoff and the OSC command. and maybe the SumpHi shutoff

 

[PerplexyHexy]

Ive been dosing 40-50 ml kalkwasser in my 10 gallon ATO reservoir... Been doing this for 2 months now with no issues... ph levels are finally stabling out around 8.2-8.4 and my calcium stays around 430-450... dkh has been a little over the place, but so far I love adding the 40-50 ml of kalk to my ATO reservoir. Very easy and convenient... I shut off my Tunze ATO and mix it in my reservoir and let it settle for a few hours and plug it back in... Only thing that sucks is you have to clean the reservoir oit every month or it gets really nasty... I also have my fuge lights on opposite my display light schedule... Just giving you an idea of what I have had success with so far...

 

[JordanM]

As I mentioned, my ATO is actually a dosing pump. It "doses" the same amount of fresh water every hour on the hour. I have it running a little less than I need, so every few days I manually top off with a cup of water. Additionally, I have to keep an eye on the topoff rate when the seasons change. In winter, I need to bump up the rate because colder air is more dry. In the summer, I have to decrease the topoff rate because the air is more moist. It takes a bit of dialing in, but there are no float switches to maintain, and the doser has never stuck on and overdosed freshwater.

This sounds like exactly what I want to do. Do you have an example of your code? Im still debating which dosing pump i would need. If I use the 1.1ml/min it will need to run for longer than the 50ml/min but based off of my current manual top off routine I think the 1.1ml would cut it. Do you guys also use check valves to prevent backflow? I know the peristaltic pumps say they prevent against this.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I don't have an Apex. I currently use a Jebao dosing pump. I dose about 16 ml per hour of freshwater. This is my topoff. On a separate dosing head, I dose fully-saturated limewater. I dose about 20 ml per hour of that. I don't use a check valve. If the dosing head doesn't maintain its prime, something is wrong and I replace the head or tubing.

I would probably use a faster dosing pump for topoffs and limewater dosing. At 1.1 mL per minute, my dosing pumps would be running for 15 hours a day (I dose about 900 mL daily between topoffs and limewater).

 

[JordanM]

Thats what im kind of calculating. The only downside to the larger pump is that it will not be as accurate, but it would only need to be on for a few seconds each hour probably.

 

[mr9iron]

Use this calculator to for your apex code.

https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg/dosingcalc.php

 

[JordanM]

Use this calculator to for your apex code.

https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg/dosingcalc.php

Thank you for this! Is there any rhime or reason to the Osc code or does the apex just understand it, because i don't see where any of my numbers are represented in this code.

 

[mr9iron]

The Apex understands it. You can change the times to when you want to top off if you want. However, I am dosing talk 24/7 so I leave both times at 0:00. I use this in conjunction with my ATO as I have a nano and only want to add so much Kalk each day. HTH.

 

[JordanM]

Thats how i left it as well and told it to dose 1000ml over the 24hr period and dose it every 30 minutes and this is the code:
Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/000:25/029:35 Then ON
If pH > 8.35 Then OFF

I did not use an offset either.

The Apex understands it. You can change the times to when you want to top off if you want. However, I am dosing talk 24/7 so I leave both times at 0:00. I use this in conjunction with my ATO as I have a nano and only want to add so much Kalk each day. HTH.

 

[Drauka99]

from the comprehensive user manual:

The oscillate, or OSC statement is one of the most confusing of all the Apex commands. In its simplest form it’s a repetitive OFF/ON/OFF (or ON/OFF/ON) command that repeats the cycle forever. Anytime you have a repetitive event, the oscillate should be considered. One of the most obvious uses of the oscillate is with power heads like those from Tunze where you want to cycle the right side then left side then right side and so on. The oscillate will do that

 

[KrisReef]

My followup post after the first one i actually mention the dosing pumps and do thing this is a batter option as they will be more accurate. I can also eliminate the peristaltic dosing pump getting stuck on with the apex killing power to the outlet. I will not use pH to determine if the tank gets topped off or not. The pH will be monitored to kill the pump if the pH gets to high from the kalk, which this will most likely never happen. The tank is a 30 gallon all in one that is a quarantine tank for corals. I do not want to put money into an ato and the cheap ones i do not trust. With a dosing pump estimating how much to add i believe i will be able to keep the salinity very stable. Currently i am topping off by hand every other day which is leading to a larger variation that the dosing pump would have if it did this action every day. The only reason i am looking to do this is for on vacations. When i am around if the dosing pump is under dosing do to the underestimating i can manually add more water. This will not be the best system but is there a major place that this can fail?

Changes in the evaporation rate while you are away would seem to be a potential fail point? My water replacement rate is not constant (Garage tank, subject to atmospheric humidity swings that reflect in water evaporation.)

 

[JordanM]

If the rate evap rate decreased the eye sensor would not allow the pump to run and if the rate increased i doubt it would be at such a rate in a week that the tank would have a huge swing in salinity. I also have Wyze cams on my tank so i could manually turn it on myself to run and then turn it off. My only concern would be if the connection was disrupted and you were unable to turn the pump off in which case the sensor should shut it off before overflowing.