Struggling with LPS in my mixed reef - help me understand PAR vs Photoperiod please!

[merkmerk73]

I have a mixed reef with SPS (including acros) and LPS and some softies

For many months now many of my LPS have been very fussy and unhappy

Little to no bleaching, but shriveling and shrinking - and tissue recession. 6 months ago my LPS were all thriving.

I have a PAR meter and this whole time I've been carefully measuring PAR levels to choose my coral placement.

"Why is this coral still being fussy when it's right around 100 par?"

However, it dawned on me that I have been using longer photoperiods - starting at 7 am with a slow ramp up and ending around 9 pm with a 4 hour peak 11am-3pm where I do all my PAR measurements - but that it may be my total lighting schedule that is blasting my tank.

So, I plan to keep the photoperiod but reduce my intensity across my peak to see if that will fix it.

My PAR will be below target on some corals, but the photoperiod should make up for it in total photosynthetic energy delivered.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

What are your parameters? How is the flow? Any changes besides the lights? Tissue recession is often from poor water quality or alk swings...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Also, many lps like par higher than 100 (not sure if you were just using that number as an example...)

 

[merkmerk73]

It's definitely not flow or parameters - that's been dialed in.

~8dkh, ~450 calcium, ~1350 magnesium, .01-.08 phosphates, 5-20 nitrates

Acros and SPS are all doing well, and some euphylia are happy, but chalices/acans/leptastrea/stylocoinella/candy cane are all *****.

( I know that stylo-Cs are not lps, but they're just an example)

It has to be light, but I've been chasing par while keeping a 12 hour schedule with a 4 hour peak - and I think that is the culprit.

 

[trevorhiller]

Do you have any tank pictures? What are your min/max alk tests for the last month?

You say the 100 PAR is at the peak of your light? What are they getting the rest of the day during the ramp?

My candy canes are getting over 200 PAR, on a 12 hour photo period, for example. Same with my chalices. 100 seems low to me, but I run my tank 225-300 in most spots.

Chasing PAR #s/messing with lights seems risky.

 

[merkmerk73]

100 par is just an example of where I place several LPS corals in a 50-100 par area

My acros are getting 175-300+ depending on how tall they are

Alk is consistently in the 8ish range because I dose with a pump and have tuned my consumption pretty well

I’m curious about candy canes in 200 par - are you sure they’re actually getting that much light and have verified with a par meter?

 

[trevorhiller]

100 par is just an example of where I place several LPS corals in a 50-100 par area

My acros are getting 175-300+ depending on how tall they are

Alk is consistently in the 8ish range because I dose with a pump and have tuned my consumption pretty well

I’m curious about candy canes in 200 par - are you sure they’re actually getting that much light and have verified with a par meter?

Correct, Apogee MQ-510

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

01-.08 phosphates, 5-20 nitrates

There's your problem. You're starving them.

 

[Gribbles]

There's your problem. You're starving them.

Not OP, but I thought that may be the case but wasn't sure. Could you elaborate a little? What range is your recommendation?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Not OP, but I thought that may be the case but wasn't sure. Could you elaborate a little? What range is your recommendation?

Assuming the nutrients are closer to 0.01-P and 5-N, that's just way too low for most coral and leaves no wiggle room if you forget to feed, increase skimming, etc.

Personally I keep my tank (mostly LPS) at 25-50 nitrate and 0.3-0.5 phosphate, but they've also been higher.

 

[brclark82]

I only have lps but mine are doing very well in 120-150 par for 8 full hours plus around 50 par for another 8 hours with 8 hours of lights out. I assume most can adapt to different schedules over time and you mention previously you were using even shorter photoperiod and they were doing well so they should be fine where you’re at. How long has it been since you changed the lighting schedule?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

4 hour only of peak lighting to me seems short, its half a day.

Not sure if I misunderstood, but 100 par on average, to me thats mushroom par level lol. Many lps corals can and will adapt to higher par.

 

[merkmerk73]

There's your problem. You're starving them.

I don’t think so. And I believe This is a red herring - nutrients have fluctuated with no change in LPS

When my acans and candy canes were flourishing I had 0 phosphates and 10 nitrates

This is a lighting question I had - specifically around photoperiod vs par

If my light was too little , my acros and SPS wouldn’t be doing so well

Anyways I don’t seem to be getting any answers that understand my question so I’m going to try my experiment and I’ll report back

 

[merkmerk73]

I only have lps but mine are doing very well in 120-150 par for 8 full hours plus around 50 par for another 8 hours with 8 hours of lights out. I assume most can adapt to different schedules over time and you mention previously you were using even shorter photoperiod and they were doing well so they should be fine where you’re at. How long has it been since you changed the lighting schedule?

I’ve been on a long photoperiod for a while and it has coincided with the LPS corals not doing great - tissue recession on some chalices, acans, and candy cane to be specific (as well as styloC)

As well as had my lights elevated a bit - I’m at 45% blue now but before I think I was in the 30s

Every time I tried upping the lights even slightly, things would get unhappy - except my sps of course which love it

So instead of just going by strict par at peak, I’m going to consider the photoperiod as a whole

 

[brclark82]

The title of this thread intrigued me because I have always wondered does 50 par for 2 hours equal 100 par for 1 hour? I am assuming that it does not but maybe.

What I can tell with my experience with lps is that your current photoperiod and intensity shouldn’t be anywhere close to too long or too much especially since you mentioned you made the change months ago…I have a much longer total photoperiod with double the length of full par and mine are doing great

I run 7a-9a ramp up
9a-4p 125-150 par
4p-12a 50 par
12a-7a lights out

Essentially over 1500 par hours (I know this isn’t a unit of measurement but I just created it) vs your approximate 800 par hours

I have hammers, frogs, Zoas, acan, Duncan, Goni and a bubble tip

I would guess your bigger problem is then never receiving anytime over 100 par and some of them may never get above 50-75 even at peak from what I can gather from your posts

 

[merkmerk73]

The title of this thread intrigued me because I have always wondered does 50 par for 2 hours equal 100 par for 1 hour? I am assuming that it does not but maybe.

What I can tell with my experience with lps is that your current photoperiod and intensity shouldn’t be anywhere close to too long or too much especially since you mentioned you made the change months ago…I have a much longer total photoperiod with double the length of full par and mine are doing great

I run 7a-9a ramp up
9a-4p 125-150 par
4p-12a 50 par
12a-7a lights out

Essentially over 1500 par hours (I know this isn’t a unit of measurement but I just created it) vs your approximate 800 par hours

I have hammers, frogs, Zoas, acan, Duncan, Goni and a bubble tip

I would guess your bigger problem is then never receiving anytime over 100 par and some of them may never get above 50-75 even at peak from what I can gather from your posts

I would suspect this if

1.) my SPS weren’t doing well
2.) increasing lights didn’t result in receding LPS

100 par is just an example in some locations - I have 3 AI prime 32s so there are zones of 200-400 par that my acros in, and zones of 150ish

The challenge has been finding 50-100 spots for more delicate low light corals


TLDR; summary:

* Mixed reef
* Corals placed in carefully measured PAR zones with a PAR meter to get appropriate lighting levels
* SPS doing well with peak levels
* Many LPS receded and unhappy
* Unhappy LPS seem to be happier in the morning when the lights start ramping up, but then shrivel and get angry by end of day
* Hypothesis - photoperiod is long, resulting in too much light energy over the course of a day, even if the peak PAR is within acceptable range

 

[Narideth]

I tend to doubt that the photoperiod is the problem here. I have an LPS dominant tank that runs 8 hrs total but 6 of those hours many of my LPS are getting 200-300+ PAR while the remaining two are around 200 PAR. Acans, hammers, blastos. The lowest any of my LPS currently get is my large duncan colony sitting at 130 in one of the corners.

I would find it hard to believe that 6-8 hours of 200-300 PAR is somehow less blasty than 100ish PAR over 4 hrs and less through the rest. 12 hours does seem like a long photoperiod, but I would be interested in seeing what they're getting the rest of the time since you have a 4 hr peak.

Have you by chance checked the PAR during other times of the day? Say, half way through your ramp ups and ramp downs? Maybe that's a tidbit of information that would help gauge what light those LPS are actually getting.

 

[merkmerk73]

I tend to doubt that the photoperiod is the problem here. I have an LPS dominant tank that runs 8 hrs total but 6 of those hours many of my LPS are getting 200-300+ PAR while the remaining two are around 200 PAR. Acans, hammers, blastos. The lowest any of my LPS currently get is my large duncan colony sitting at 130 in one of the corners.

I would find it hard to believe that 6-8 hours of 200-300 PAR is somehow less blasty than 100ish PAR over 4 hrs and less through the rest. 12 hours does seem like a long photoperiod, but I would be interested in seeing what they're getting the rest of the time since you have a 4 hr peak.

Have you by chance checked the PAR during other times of the day? Say, half way through your ramp ups and ramp downs? Maybe that's a tidbit of information that would help gauge what light those LPS are actually getting.

I have - it drops into the 50s-80s range

I have a hard time believing your LPS are getting 200-300 par.

How are you measuring? Do you measure with the sensor at the coral to account for shading and depth?

If so, you should put some videos out - all info from coral farmers I can find is that things like blastos can’t handle even 120 par - forget about 200+

My biggest clue so far is that these corals are fluffier and happier in the morning before my peak period kicks in - and tend to shrivel and recede more towards the late afternoon after getting hit with 4 hrs of peak lighting

 

[Narideth]

I'm measuring at the depth of the coral with an apogee PAR meter. They didn't like me nestling the meter right in amongst the heads, but I believe the numbers are close to accurate. The corals went through a sort of unintentional ramp up period while I was upgrading the lights over a period of about 3-4 months. I thought they weren't getting enough light.

The numbers surprised me as well when I finally got a meter in there to measure but also explained why some other lower light corals had died because I have unintentionally been absolutely blasting this tank because I didn't understand how deceptively bright LED lights can be when compared to the human eye. The blasto in particular is right around 200 PAR.

 

[Narideth]

I have blastos sitting under 180 PAR in a different tank as well. They can handle a lot more light if they're given the chance to ramp up to it. One of my hammers absolutely was like NO and I had to shift it out to somewhere a bit darker.