Stubborn Internal Parasite/Worm Issue

[rklong3]

I've had a frustrating, months long battle with what I believe to be some sort of internal parasite or worm. I've read just about every thread here on the topic I could find, but I'm still stumped as to what to do next. I'll try to provide as complete information as I can.

Tank Details:
40 Gallon
HOB Penguin 350 Power Filter
HOB Protein Skimmer
(2) Powerheads
40 lb liverock aquascape
Substrate: Special Grade, Bahamas Oolite, and Pink Fiji combination (about 50 lbs total)
Significant copepod population

Water Chemistry:
Purchase pre-mixed RODI water from LFS
80°F
Salinity: 1.0255
pH: 7.9
NH3: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 1 ppm
PO4: 0 ppm
O2: 7 mg/l

Fish:
Currently, we only have a Pink Spotted Watchman Goby and a Purple Firefish. We've had two separate Bangaii Cardinals that have not made it (one never ate in QT, the other made it 6 months in DT).

Food:
Twice daily, almost exclusively Hikari frozen (alternate between brine, mysis, bloodworms, mega marine, squid)
Occasionally feed pellets (very rarely)

Battle #1:
I first noticed a problem with our Bangaii Cardinal. It quit eating all together in the DT. I wasn't worried at first because I thought it was filling up on copepods (it tended to eat them all day long normally). Stupidity and lack of attention (he was always hiding behind rocks and often difficult to see) led me to not realize it was something more serious until it was too late. By the end (about 2 weeks later), he was so small and fraile. He couldn't keep himself upright and was floating on his side, gasping for breath. We removed him and euthanized him. None of the other fish appeared to show any symptoms. I did a ton of research after our Cardinal passed, determined to not let this happen again. I eventually narrowed down to flukes (similar symptoms and a more prolonged death were what mainly convinced me).

Battle #2:
By this time, about 2 weeks later, my watchman goby quit eating. This is very unusual for him - he is a huge pig. He also began flashing and divebombing our sand. He starting carrying sand in his mouth and sifting it through his gills (which from what I understand is very uncommon). This further confirmed flukes in my mind. So, I immediately treated the DT with Prazi per package instructions. As soon as the Prazi hit the water, the goby began freaking out, swimming erratically, trying to jump out of the tank, and breathing extremely violently. I took this to mean that the medication was working and the flukes were releasing from him. I treated Prazi three more times per instructions and got the same reaction from the goby each time, but progressively less severe. After the 3rd treatment, I decided to stop and see how things went. He slowly began eating normally again and acting normal. I thought we were in the clear.

Battle #3:
About a month later, the goby started flashing again and sifting sand. I treated again with Prazi and got the same reactions from the goby. I treated twice this time (I was afraid to treat too many more times as I read that Prazi becomes less and less effective the more it is used). Again, the Goby returned to normal behavior.

Battle #4:
About 2 weeks later, you guessed it. Goby started flashing again and stopped eating again. I knew I needed to change my approach. On the recommendation of the LFS, I picked up Metrocleanse. I dosed twice per package directions. The goby did not react to this treatment at all, like he did with Prazi. However, it seemed to work. The flashing stopped and he began eating again as normal.

The Current Battle:
It's been about a month since the last Metro treatment. And it's starting again. Except it's a bit different this time. The goby has started flashing again. But he has also tried to jump out of the tank on numerous occasions. He actually hits the lid he jumps so hard. This is highly unusual for him. He has also taken to perching on rocks high up toward the top of the tank, which he has never done before either. And funny enough, the firefish, who previously has shown no symptoms whatsoever, is now flashing and divebombing the sand. Both are showing some minor signs of slightly labored breathing. But the fish aren't losing their appetite like previously. On the contrary, they are almost ravenous. My goby will practically jump out of the tank chasing food. I've increased feedings to 3 times a day just because they act like they are starving. However, they both seem to be losing weight, especially the goby.

With this new symptom in mind, I'm concerned about worms now. I picked up Expel-P from the LFS but I haven't dosed yet. I've read a lot of concerns online about using this product.


WHAT DO I DO???

I'm not sure if I should dose Prazi or Metro again, or if I should give the Expel-P a try. Or maybe this is something else entirely that I haven't considered.

I haven't noticed any other symptoms or external problems. No white/stringy feces.

Please let me know your thoughts. Also note that the goby is near impossible to catch, so for any solutions I need to be able to treat the DT safely. I have no coral and just the copepods for inverts (though if I have to sacrifice them for the health of the fish, I'm willing).

Thank you in advance for helping this novice, first time poster!!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Both fish have really good body mass, so the lack of feedings hasn't caused them to become thin - yet.

In terms of the fish adversely reacting to prazi - both species should tolerate it quite well. What type of prazi were you using? Powdered, pure prazi does not dissolve well, and the particles could irritate the fish if it gets in their gills. Prazipro has a glycol solvent in it that strips oxygen from the water, so you need to ensure there is really good aeration in the tank when using that. Finally, as you alluded to - if the fish have severe flukes, simply dosing them with prazi causes the flukes to move about and drop off. This causes the fish extra irritation (like bugs crawling on your skin). Additionally, in severe fluke infections, all the flukes dropping off at once can cause the fish to lose blood through all of the open holes in their gills/skin. This can stress the fish and even kill them outright due to anemia.

Curing egg laying gill flukes with prazi is often difficult. Prazi only kills the adult flukes, and any eggs left in the tank can hatch out and reinfect the fish. I usually suggest spacing prazi treatments 8 days apart. This is different than the instructions on most prazi meds (Prazipro and General Cure). Here is the final issue though - multiple doses of prazi cause a group of bacteria to grow in the tank that consume prazi faster than it has a chance to work. I've found that after 4 treatments, it pretty much stops working. You can partially overcome that issue if you are using pure prazi powder (not Prazipro or GC) by increasing the dose to 4 ppm. However, with each dose, the bacteria grow faster, and it also stops working. People talk about "prazi resistant flukes", but what they are really seeing is bacteria that eats the prazi faster than it has time to work.

The wild card here is the metronidazole giving some relief - that has no real effect against flukes. There may be another issue in play here.

So - what to do? Your tank doesn't seem to have many invertebrates in it. Could you move them out and treat the whole tank with hyposalinity? I've found that this can work better than prazi does in many cases.

Another option would be to try General Cure (prazi and metronidazole) dose three times, 8 days apart.

Jay



Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Both fish have really good body mass, so the lack of feedings hasn't caused them to become thin - yet.

In terms of the fish adversely reacting to prazi - both species should tolerate it quite well. What type of prazi were you using? Powdered, pure prazi does not dissolve well, and the particles could irritate the fish if it gets in their gills. Prazipro has a glycol solvent in it that strips oxygen from the water, so you need to ensure there is really good aeration in the tank when using that. Finally, as you alluded to - if the fish have severe flukes, simply dosing them with prazi causes the flukes to move about and drop off. This causes the fish extra irritation (like bugs crawling on your skin). Additionally, in severe fluke infections, all the flukes dropping off at once can cause the fish to lose blood through all of the open holes in their gills/skin. This can stress the fish and even kill them outright due to anemia.

Curing egg laying gill flukes with prazi is often difficult. Prazi only kills the adult flukes, and any eggs left in the tank can hatch out and reinfect the fish. I usually suggest spacing prazi treatments 8 days apart. This is different than the instructions on most prazi meds (Prazipro and General Cure). Here is the final issue though - multiple doses of prazi cause a group of bacteria to grow in the tank that consume prazi faster than it has a chance to work. I've found that after 4 treatments, it pretty much stops working. You can partially overcome that issue if you are using pure prazi powder (not Prazipro or GC) by increasing the dose to 4 ppm. However, with each dose, the bacteria grow faster, and it also stops working. People talk about "prazi resistant flukes", but what they are really seeing is bacteria that eats the prazi faster than it has time to work.

The wild card here is the metronidazole giving some relief - that has no real effect against flukes. There may be another issue in play here.

So - what to do? Your tank doesn't seem to have many invertebrates in it. Could you move them out and treat the whole tank with hyposalinity? I've found that this can work better than prazi does in many cases.

Another option would be to try General Cure (prazi and metronidazole) dose three times, 8 days apart.

Jay



Jay

Agree with Jay - and given the size of the fish - would treat in a hospital tank.

 

[rklong3]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Both fish have really good body mass, so the lack of feedings hasn't caused them to become thin - yet.

In terms of the fish adversely reacting to prazi - both species should tolerate it quite well. What type of prazi were you using? Powdered, pure prazi does not dissolve well, and the particles could irritate the fish if it gets in their gills. Prazipro has a glycol solvent in it that strips oxygen from the water, so you need to ensure there is really good aeration in the tank when using that. Finally, as you alluded to - if the fish have severe flukes, simply dosing them with prazi causes the flukes to move about and drop off. This causes the fish extra irritation (like bugs crawling on your skin). Additionally, in severe fluke infections, all the flukes dropping off at once can cause the fish to lose blood through all of the open holes in their gills/skin. This can stress the fish and even kill them outright due to anemia.

Curing egg laying gill flukes with prazi is often difficult. Prazi only kills the adult flukes, and any eggs left in the tank can hatch out and reinfect the fish. I usually suggest spacing prazi treatments 8 days apart. This is different than the instructions on most prazi meds (Prazipro and General Cure). Here is the final issue though - multiple doses of prazi cause a group of bacteria to grow in the tank that consume prazi faster than it has a chance to work. I've found that after 4 treatments, it pretty much stops working. You can partially overcome that issue if you are using pure prazi powder (not Prazipro or GC) by increasing the dose to 4 ppm. However, with each dose, the bacteria grow faster, and it also stops working. People talk about "prazi resistant flukes", but what they are really seeing is bacteria that eats the prazi faster than it has time to work.

The wild card here is the metronidazole giving some relief - that has no real effect against flukes. There may be another issue in play here.

So - what to do? Your tank doesn't seem to have many invertebrates in it. Could you move them out and treat the whole tank with hyposalinity? I've found that this can work better than prazi does in many cases.

Another option would be to try General Cure (prazi and metronidazole) dose three times, 8 days apart.

Jay



Jay

Thanks so much for the detailed answer. I used liquid PraziPro applied directly to the filter box. I was pretty surprised how violently the goby reacted to the treatments. Is this normal? I just assumed it was a reaction to the flukes detaching.

Yes, hyposalinity could be an option. I'll research that some more.

Based on what I've said, do you think this sounds like flukes? Trying to determine if it is safe to rule out worms or if I should consider dosing the levamisole.....

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks so much for the detailed answer. I used liquid PraziPro applied directly to the filter box. I was pretty surprised how violently the goby reacted to the treatments. Is this normal? I just assumed it was a reaction to the flukes detaching.

Yes, hyposalinity could be an option. I'll research that some more.

Based on what I've said, do you think this sounds like flukes? Trying to determine if it is safe to rule out worms or if I should consider dosing the levamisole.....

Levamisole is used mostly for treating non-encysted nematodes. Those are usually internal in fish and don't cause flashing. I don't think those are the issue here.

Jay