Suggestions for bringing down really High KH

[chad 1079]

HI all, so I've been having issue's with really high KH in both my tanks(125 & 210) to the point in my 125 I've lost some fish. It's over 300 in my 125 and almost 300 in my 210. I've purposely been using Instant Ocean in my tanks because I know the better salts can increase your KH/ buffering capacity. But the guys @ my LFS said that salt isn't always that balanced and the suggested switching to red sea blue lid. Anybody got any suggestions for bringing it down?
Thanks!

 

[Spare time]

High alk won't kill fish. Disease is far more likely the cause, followed by something such as low oxygen.

 

[Spare time]

Also, unless you are dosing, or your salinity is off (which would be my guess), your alk can't be that high. What are you using to check salinity and have you calibrated it (if so, how)?

 

[tzabor10]

Water changes

 

[jda]

Do you mean 300 ppm of carbonate which is about 16.5 dKh? I don't know how you could have 300 dKh which would likely precipitate out of the solution.

First, are you sure that they are actually that high? Have you been dosing anything. No salt mix is that high and alk doesn't get there on it's own. How are you testing this?

I doubt that you have lost fish because of this.

Normal processes in the tank will bring alk down.

You can add acid to your salt mix and change water. I would do this slowly if you have sensitive corals. Gallons * desired dKh drop * .123 is the MLs of Muriatic Acid to use. You have to let the mix aerate for another day to drive off the co2 and bring the pH back up.

Changing a salt for this is not necessary. Any salt mix will lower that high of alk. FWIW - IO is arguably the best salt on the market with excellent cost and very good consistency. There is no reason to switch from Instant Ocean. Many of the best hobbyist reefs and public aquaria use Instant Ocean.

 

[chad 1079]

Also, unless you are dosing, or your salinity is off (which would be my guess), your alk can't be that high. What are you using to check salinity and have you calibrated it (if so, how)?

Hi Thanks for responding, I mean I've got just one of those plastic salinity checkers @home but I just got the water tested today at my lfs and they use that other kind that's more advanced. They Said it was 1.022 . Oh and yes I've been dosing with balance(because it's not supposed to increase alkalinity). The PH has been low, because I believe I had gill flukes and I was using prazipro. The one guy @ the lfs also thought it was weird that my alkalinity was that high. They said it could be my water where I live, suggested testing that and if it's that get a r/o water unit or it could be the salt I'm using in which case I should switch salt.

 

[jda]

There are no pH products that do not raise dKh. The manufacturers are liars - this is discussed on here in the false claims by manufacturers thread.

It is not the water nor the salt... it is the pH additive.

 

[Spare time]

Hi Thanks for responding, I mean I've got just one of those plastic salinity checkers @home but I just got the water tested today at my lfs and they use that other kind that's more advanced. They Said it was 1.022 . Oh and yes I've been dosing with balance(because it's not supposed to increase alkalinity). The PH has been low, because I believe I had gill flukes and I was using prazipro. The one guy @ the lfs also thought it was weird that my alkalinity was that high. They said it could be my water where I live, suggested testing that and if it's that get a r/o water unit or it could be the salt I'm using in which case I should switch salt.

Any PhD additive raises alk. Did the LFS guy say it wouldn't? If so, I would stop listening to his/her advice.

 

[vetteguy53081]

HI all, so I've been having issue's with really high KH in both my tanks(125 & 210) to the point in my 125 I've lost some fish. It's over 300 in my 125 and almost 300 in my 210. I've purposely been using Instant Ocean in my tanks because I know the better salts can increase your KH/ buffering capacity. But the guys @ my LFS said that salt isn't always that balanced and the suggested switching to red sea blue lid. Anybody got any suggestions for bringing it down?
Thanks!

need more info on behavior of fish as low oxygen or disease were likely events leading to death.
Were fish still eating or had loss of appetite?
Did breathing rate increase ?
Any scratching or darting?

 

[chad 1079]

Any PhD additive raises alk. Did the LFS guy say it wouldn't? If so, I would stop listening to his/her advice.

He did, but in his defense I will say it says right on the bottle won't affect calcium or alkalinity. Thanks

 

[chad 1079]

need more info on behavior of fish as low oxygen or disease were likely events leading to death.
Were fish still eating or had loss of appetite?
Did breathing rate increase ?
Any scratching or darting?

Hi, yes fish had been scratching and darting plus breathing rapidly and staying towards top. Originally thought it may have been flukes so I used prazipro. Didn't realize the medication would drop the PH(7.6) and that it could also decrease oxygen in the water. Because after a week or so and 2 treatments of prazipro they still seemed to be exhibiting the same symptoms. Not realizing it could be low oxygen or low ph I did a water change and started using paraguard. About this time I realized the PH was low and started adding balance(daily or twice daily). After doing this for about a week I actually thought everything was fine. Fish were still eating and they didn't seem to be breathing hard. So I added some new fish (damsels and hawkfish) I bought online Wednesday. Within 6-8 hours they were dead, the chromis were all breathing super hard. I couldn't figure it out because the ph was now fine 8.1 and nitrates were low(30). Then yesterday I lost a couple of the fish I've had in there for a while. The guys @ my LFS said the new ones most likely dies because the KH was so high that it put them in shock. Of course the fish I have left are now @ the top so I'm going to do a water change, lower the salinity a little(thinking around 1.017, 1.022 now) and try not to use anymore ph increaseer. Not sure what else to do at this point?

 

[Spare time]

He did, but in his defense I will say it says right on the bottle won't affect calcium or alkalinity. Thanks

Imo anyone who works at an lfs should know that the ingredients, sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide are alk additives People at LFS often don't know what they are talking about which is a pet peeve of mine having worked at one. I'm just worried they will give you some other advise that can crash a tank. I'm especially concerned if they told you high alk is possibly killing your fish.


Aquavitro/seachem lies about this on the product and there is a thread going on about brightwells version called brightwell pH boost or something.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi, yes fish had been scratching and darting plus breathing rapidly and staying towards top. Originally thought it may have been flukes so I used prazipro. Didn't realize the medication would drop the PH(7.6) and that it could also decrease oxygen in the water. Because after a week or so and 2 treatments of prazipro they still seemed to be exhibiting the same symptoms. Not realizing it could be low oxygen or low ph I did a water change and started using paraguard. About this time I realized the PH was low and started adding balance(daily or twice daily). After doing this for about a week I actually thought everything was fine. Fish were still eating and they didn't seem to be breathing hard. So I added some new fish (damsels and hawkfish) I bought online Wednesday. Within 6-8 hours they were dead, the chromis were all breathing super hard. I couldn't figure it out because the ph was now fine 8.1 and nitrates were low(30). Then yesterday I lost a couple of the fish I've had in there for a while. The guys @ my LFS said the new ones most likely dies because the KH was so high that it put them in shock. Of course the fish I have left are now @ the top so I'm going to do a water change, lower the salinity a little(thinking around 1.017, 1.022 now) and try not to use anymore ph increaseer. Not sure what else to do at this point?

KH should not have affected fish and Paraguard is quite frank garbage. Prazi indeed reduces O2 but not significantly, in which added aeration is recommended/ Adding paraguard and ph buffers likely were the enemy.
If its hypo salinity you are aiming for, its 1.009 as 1.017 wont do much and may stress certain fish

 

[Spare time]

KH should not have affected fish and Paraguard is quite frank garbage. Prazi indeed reduces O2 but not significantly, in which added aeration is recommended/ Adding paraguard and ph buffers likely were the enemy.
If its hypo salinity you are aiming for, its 1.009 as 1.017 wont do much and may stress certain fish

Why do you say paraguard is garbage? It's aldehyde and malachite green.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Why do you say paraguard is garbage? It's aldehyde and malachite green.

Malachite green has a copper agent in it and does not blend well with calcium and can be toxic with elevated tank temperature and low ph levels. Its best for goldfish treatment.
It does not eradicate ich as claimed and weve seen many failures with its use. Same applies to ich guard

 

[Cichlid Dad]

He did, but in his defense I will say it says right on the bottle won't affect calcium or alkalinity. Thanks

He should know better, reason not to listen to him

 

[chad 1079]

KH should not have affected fish and Paraguard is quite frank garbage. Prazi indeed reduces O2 but not significantly, in which added aeration is recommended/ Adding paraguard and ph buffers likely were the enemy.
If its hypo salinity you are aiming for, its 1.009 as 1.017 wont do much and may stress certain fish

Thanks, didn't realize that about paraguard. Not really aiming for hyposalinity. Just trying to bring the KH down as it seems to be the only thing out of whack right now. I was assuming if I don't but anymore buffer in and I add less salt(less KH back in the tank) it should bring it down? Everything I've seen 315/18 is definitely too high and can stress out animals.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks, didn't realize that about paraguard. Not really aiming for hyposalinity. Just trying to bring the KH down as it seems to be the only thing out of whack right now. I was assuming if I don't but anymore buffer in and I add less salt(less KH back in the tank) it should bring it down? Everything I've seen 315/18 is definitely too high and can stress out animals.

With patience, performing 20% water changes every 5 days will gradually bring it down But assure when you mix new water that the alk level is not already high from salt mix. One method I used that worked was adding small amounts of vinegar every 24 hours BUT if you do this, assure PH is not affected.

 

[chad 1079]

Imo anyone who works at an lfs should know that the ingredients, sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide are alk additives People at LFS often don't know what they are talking about which is a pet peeve of mine having worked at one. I'm just worried they will give you some other advise that can crash a tank. I'm especially concerned if they told you high alk is possibly killing your fish.


Aquavitro/seachem lies about this on the product and there is a thread going on about brightwells version called brightwell pH boost or something.

So if you have sky high KH and the PH drops(it's 8.2 now) what would you recommend? Thanks

 

[chad 1079]

With patience, performing 20% water changes every 5 days will gradually bring it down But assure when you mix new water that the alk level is not already high from salt mix. One method I used that worked was adding small amounts of vinegar every 24 hours BUT if you do this, assure PH is not affected.

Ok, thanks. I will test the KH in the new water to see what it is. They also told me @ lfs that I shouldn't add all of the salt mix @ once in the bucket, 1 scoop @ a time then mix it, then repeat. Something about disapating elements. Never heard that before.