Sump water level

DarkReefer

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Hi guys,

I'm sure this gets asked all the time, but I'm a little concerned I haven't put the right amount of water in my sump.
It's very low at the moment due to evap, gotta wait another 30 mins or so for the LFS to open so I can get some RODI though.

Where the filter sits, I can see that only a small portion at the bottom is actually being utilised for bacteria to grow on (I can push this in further though), is the water level on the pump side supposed to be higher when it's on? It seems to be leaving the filter a little dry for some of it?
I know if I turn it off the level will rise again to 'Flood' level, which is what, about an inch off the top of the sump just in case.

Would appreciate your guidance!
Thanks!

Here you can see the filter is mostly dry on top. (also as a side note, should this pump auto shut off thing be moved to the pump chamber instead?)
20210109_092812.jpg


Here you can see where the water level sits on the filter along with min/max on (does this seem too close together ?)
20210109_092845.jpg


Here you can see where the flood marker is. Went a little conservative as the first time I turned it on (pump was on lvl 5, so max), it was bubbling and throwing water everywhere out of the overflow drain, now that it's been turned down to 2 it seems more stable, so I'm wondering if I increase the level a bit (although skimmer still needs to go into the system which I'm yet to buy, so maybe I hold on that).
20210109_092914.jpg
 
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DarkReefer

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sounds like you need to adjust your overflow gate valve, also if that foam filter is dirty enough the return pump section does not allow enough flow to the pump
Thanks for the suggestion, I did give the valve adjustment a go earlier this morning, but whilst in doing so it creates a higher water level in the sump for the return pump chamber, it also creates a bunch of noise from the overflow along with some bubbling in the overflow chamber.
At the moment my filter socks are out (until tonight) due to the dr tims instructions advising to remove these, so currently that's the only filter in the system.

Is it normal to take that foam filter out completely and have nothing there?
 

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While getting rodi water you can raise its level with bottles full of tap water, but remember this does not correct for salinity, it would also put the ball of ato in the return pump compartment



 

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What’s your running level?
Do you have room to increase sump water level?
Your max level mark looks more like my run level, min to too close to the pump intake and shell suck air.
That sponge maybe too restrictive.

Is it possible the pump is moving water faster than what’s being returned....turn the pump to slowest speed to test. Gate valves should be wide open.
 
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lefkonj

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I would always make sure the return pump is covered with plenty of water, so it doesn't grab any air at all. The foam could definitely be causing this but I can't tell if the chamber prior to the return is high or low.

In my opinion sump level is two things:
1. Enough water to cover return pump so it never gets air.
2. The right water level for your skimmer.
 

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Agreed on several thoughts above.

I would add that based on the pic provided that your max water level for the pump is a bit low. Even there you can draw air in to the pump.

Your measurements first and foremost should be based on your return pump. Once dialed in on speed of return and overflow (I leave mine wide open, since your overflow speed is controlled by your return pump any how).

Leave the sponge, it is designed to be a biological filter. (Much needed)

I would relocate your sump level lines to your main reservoir, where a skimmer would go. It is easier to control your levels. If your filter socks clog and overflow debris it will clog the pores in the foam etc. Hence keep your ato sensor where it is.

Overall it looks fine. I would say you just need to run it with more water. As long as when you shut the pump down and let the water back flow and settle that it does not overflow the sump then you are good to go.

The point of putting the lines on your sump is so you don't over fill. Meaning when your not home and the power goes out, that the sump doesn't flood your house when the back flow runs in to it.
 

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20210109_103801.jpg


Here you can see my sump is running 2 filter socks, i also have the foam filter insert between the skimmer section and return section, its a matter of personal choice if you want to keep it or not.
I have a 100watt DC return pump set and running at 80watt.
The gurgling you hear and bubbles in your overflow section of your sump are either from the emergency overflow engaging( too high water level in display) or from overflow scavenging ( too low water level in display) both can reveal simmillar symptoms in the sump overflow.

First remove filter foam from between skimmer and return section.
Set your return pump to 70% capacity, this will create scavenging effect, open gate valve on overflow line until this stops, at the same time ensure your return box does not run low enough to allow air into the pump causing cavitation.
You need to balance the gate valve flow with return pump flow set speed, and after doing this dont forget to ensure your return outlets are set shallow enough that your sump will not overflow in case or return pump failure or power outage.

After replacing the foam you may need to make a small adjustment on your gate valve.

When in future after setting this, very small adjustments may be necessary on the gate valve now and then after changing filter socks, water changes or just stopping the return pump at feeding times.
Once you have your filter(sump) flow set at the return pump speed, just use the gate valve for fine tuning, there is no need to adjust at the DC controller for the return pump.
In addition, in time you will notice your return section water level running low. Do not adjust anything, all this means is that your filter sponge is filling with detritus and needs to be cleaned, simply give a good squeeze out in saltwater several times to release the debris and replace, the water level in your return section will resume its normal level.
 
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Just got back from the LFS with some more salt and RO water.
I've added in the RO water. Also got hold of an ATO and preordered my skimmer which should arrive this coming week.

Since getting back I've topped off with the RODI water and added in a bit extra so my salinity may drop a little (but should be okay as it was about 1.027 anyway.

What’s your running level?
Do you have room to increase sump water level?
Your max level mark looks more like my run level, min to too close to the pump intake and shell suck air.
That sponge maybe too restrictive.

Is it possible the pump is moving water faster than what’s being returned....turn the pump to slowest speed to test. Gate valves should be wide open.

Well the level being so close to the pump etc was what I was thinking, however I did follow the steps on here about sumps and setting the min/max(where it starts sounding like its sucking etc and then filling it back up slightly until it stops and marking that as min).
The sponge seems thick, but not THAT restrictive (IMO at least, I've seen sponge more dense than this).

Might have to play with the gate valve as you've suggested, I thought I'd dialed in a fairly good setting though (2nd slowest setting, valve is open but not sure how much).

Agreed on several thoughts above.

I would add that based on the pic provided that your max water level for the pump is a bit low. Even there you can draw air in to the pump.

Your measurements first and foremost should be based on your return pump. Once dialed in on speed of return and overflow (I leave mine wide open, since your overflow speed is controlled by your return pump any how).

Leave the sponge, it is designed to be a biological filter. (Much needed)

I would relocate your sump level lines to your main reservoir, where a skimmer would go. It is easier to control your levels. If your filter socks clog and overflow debris it will clog the pores in the foam etc. Hence keep your ato sensor where it is.

Overall it looks fine. I would say you just need to run it with more water. As long as when you shut the pump down and let the water back flow and settle that it does not overflow the sump then you are good to go.

The point of putting the lines on your sump is so you don't over fill. Meaning when your not home and the power goes out, that the sump doesn't flood your house when the back flow runs in to it.

Yeah the sponge I'm happy to leave in if possible for the biological filter reason.
Regarding the sump level lines. I initially had these on there but figured I should move these onto the pump chamber as it's the pump chamber that moves drastically, the main chamber at least for now, doesn't seem to move much/if at all even if the pump is down/up.

I shut off the pump when I was topping it off, just so I could overfill it slightly (compared to my existing 'flood' marker).

20210109_103801.jpg


Here you can see my sump is running 2 filter socks, i also have the foam filter insert between the skimmer section and return section, its a matter of personal choice if you want to keep it or not.
I have a 100watt DC return pump set and running at 80watt.
The gurgling you hear and bubbles in your overflow section of your sump are either from the emergency overflow engaging( too high water level in display) or from overflow scavenging ( too low water level in display) both can reveal simmillar symptoms in the sump overflow.

First remove filter foam from between skimmer and return section.
Set your return pump to 70% capacity, this will create scavenging effect, open gate valve on overflow line until this stops, at the same time ensure your return box does not run low enough to allow air into the pump causing cavitation.
You need to balance the gate valve flow with return pump flow set speed, and after doing this dont forget to ensure your return outlets are set shallow enough that your sump will not overflow in case or return pump failure or power outage.

After replacing the foam you may need to make a small adjustment on your gate valve.

When in future after setting this, very small adjustments may be necessary on the gate valve now and then after changing filter socks, water changes or just stopping the return pump at feeding times.
Once you have your filter(sump) flow set at the return pump speed, just use the gate valve for fine tuning, there is no need to adjust at the DC controller for the return pump.
In addition, in time you will notice your return section water level running low. Do not adjust anything, all this means is that your filter sponge is filling with detritus and needs to be cleaned, simply give a good squeeze out in saltwater several times to release the debris and replace, the water level in your return section will resume its normal level.
See I thought the pump section should have more water like yours does. Mine however doesn't seem to. Maybe if I turn the pump to slowest setting and wide open the gate? Perhaps then it'll fill up some more and look something similar to yours. I know my tank is only small by comparison to a lot of others on here (about 262L apparently combined), but I worry if the pump isn't pumping enough through the system if I drop it to it's lowest setting.
My LFS told me that the levels I showed him from photos appeared to be okay though?

I might have it adjusted okay now that I've topped it off. I've got a water trickle sound from the sock chambers (no socks in there whilst dosing ammonia chloride/cycling) but that's it. Not sure if I can eliminate this sound completely by playing with the settings some more.
 

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what size is your overflow plumbing?
What size Varios are you running?
Something does not seem right, there is no way i would be happy having my return section that low.
Wish i could pop over and set it up for you.

At this point i would be opening your gate valve and watching your sump water level rise, it will gurgle and blow bubbles but wait and then increase DC pump watts to accommodate for the extra overflow.
In addition ENSURE your return nozzles are set as shallow as possible but still submerged, mine are barely below the water surface, it sounds like your sump and display water needs more in the total system volume, but you need to be very careful of your sump capacity at power outage for emergency overflow.
 
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DarkReefer

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what size is your overflow plumbing?
What size Varios are you running?
Something does not seem right, there is no way i would be happy having my return section that low.
Wish i could pop over and set it up for you.

At this point i would be opening your gate valve and watching your sump water level rise, it will gurgle and blow bubbles but wait and then increase DC pump watts to accommodate for the extra overflow.
In addition ENSURE your return nozzles are set as shallow as possible but still submerged, mine are barely below the water surface, it sounds like your sump and display water needs more in the total system volume, but you need to be very careful of your sump capacity at power outage for emergency overflow.

As in the diameter of the plumbing? Honestly not too sure, would have to measure to check.
Varios 2 is what I'm running, so it's only pretty small.
Since I've topped it up. The water level is currently sitting approx mid way between flood and the max on line I had marked, so it looks much better now. I had checked earlier with power off to see what the sump would look like in a power outage situation, it's slightly higher than my Flood line I had marked, but there's still more breathing room there (Flood line I had marked was quite conservative).

Are you talking about the return nozzles in the weir or in the cabinet going into the sump ?
 

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Return nozzles are in your display from your return pump, overflow lines are going from weir to your sump from display.
Reason i stress the depth of the return nozzles are in case of failure of the check valve, assuming your return line has one fitted, if and when it fails, your return nozzle depth will continue to back siphon to the sump untill air breaks the siphon determined by the depth of your return nozzle.
 
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Lightspeed

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Ok, so Waterbox recommends 23cm water depth in your sump, also recommends 2700lph turnover.
Your Varios 2 has a max output of 3000lph, i assume this is at zero head, so this says to me you should be able to run the Varios 2 near 100% capacity. I cant find detail on the plumbing size, but if this is what Waterbox recommends, the plumbing should not be inhibiting sump turnover.
Your setup is the same as mine as my tank is also made by same producer, just much larger.
Take the lid off of your weir, you can see the emergency overflow on the far left, this pipe is just a little higher than your normal overflow that runs on your gate valve.
Mark 23cm depth on your main skimmer chamber.
Adjust your overflow gate valve open and your pump speed up, if the water height goes up to the emergency overflow pipe lvl, increase your pump speed, keep doing this a little at a time and you will arrive at a point mark very close to the 23cm depth mark on your skimmer chamber.
The system overall water level in the display and sump will balance, dont let the gurgling noise from the overflow stop you, it is harmless, when that is happening, observe both water returns in the weir, if the water level is up to the emergency overflow speed up your pump a little but do not adjust the gate valve, wait to see how the pump speed changes the water level on the overflows first.

I know it sounds complex but its real easy, all you are doing is tuning your pump output to your display overflow output and finding a happy balance that serves sump and filtration turnover rates.
 
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Return nozzles are in your display from your return pump, overflow lines are going from weir to your sump from display.
Reason i stress the depth of the return nozzles are in case of failure of the check valve, assuming your return line has one fitted, if and when it fails, your return nozzle depth will continue to back siphon to the sump untill air breaks the siphon determined by the depth of your return nozzle.
Ahh right, those. They're probably slightly lower than they should be, but only just I think. I'll look to adjust these and raise them up slightly.

20210109_174722.jpg

Ok, so Waterbox recommends 23cm water depth in your sump, also recommends 2700lph turnover.
Your Varios 2 has a max output of 3000lph, i assume this is at zero head, so this says to me you should be able to run the Varios 2 near 100% capacity. I cant find detail on the plumbing size, but if this is what Waterbox recommends, the plumbing should not be inhibiting sump turnover.
Your setup is the same as mine as my tank is also made by same producer, just much larger.
Take the lid off of your weir, you can see the emergency overflow on the far left, this pipe is just a little higher than your normal overflow that runs on your gate valve.
Mark 23cm depth on your main skimmer chamber.
Adjust your overflow gate valve open and your pump speed up, if the water height goes up to the emergency overflow pipe lvl, increase your pump speed, keep doing this a little at a time and you will arrive at a point mark very close to the 23cm depth mark on your skimmer chamber.
The system overall water level in the display and sump will balance, dont let the gurgling noise from the overflow stop you, it is harmless, when that is happening, observe both water returns in the weir, if the water level is up to the emergency overflow speed up your pump a little but do not adjust the gate valve, wait to see how the pump speed changes the water level on the overflows first.

I know it sounds complex but its real easy, all you are doing is tuning your pump output to your display overflow output and finding a happy balance that serves sump and filtration turnover rates.

Wow, thanks for going to the trouble of researching for me. I appreciate you going to the effort.
I'll likely have a tinker with this tomorrow. Planning to probably do a little cable management in the sump if I can so will give this a go also. Thank you!

A question that may be a little hard to answer unless hearing in person as everyone will judge this differently;
Is it normal to have a little trickling sound coming from the sump in general or are you supposed to be able to get your tank to run silent (apart from say the hum of the pump/skimmer).
 

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My sump runs pretty quiet, it is common to get some noise from the sock compartment, but you should not get much that is audible with the cabinet closed, i cant hear my return pump or skimmer, i know my return is running only from the return water flow breaking the water surface in my display.
You should not get gurgling sound though, if you do thats the overflow and you will notice alot of airbubbles in the overflow plumbing section of the sump in front of your filter socks
 
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My sump runs pretty quiet, it is common to get some noise from the sock compartment, but you should not get much that is audible with the cabinet closed, i cant hear my return pump or skimmer, i know my return is running only from the return water flow breaking the water surface in my display.
You should not get gurgling sound though, if you do thats the overflow and you will notice alot of airbubbles in the overflow plumbing section of the sump in front of your filter socks

Not getting any gurgling anymore, I get a trickle noise from the sock sections with or without socks in but that's it. With the cabinet closed I can still hear the trickling though (definitely no noise from the weir) so was interested to know.
Wonder if it's worth measuring out this section only for a glass lid and get a local glazier to cut it in the same thickness glass. Then put some glue onto it and add some of the sound deadening foam on the inside of it to muffle it a bit.
 

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Either that or you could try some sock silencers, you could prob make them yourself, get some polycard, cut out a round form to fit inside the top lip of your sock and drill a heap of holes in it, dont use them myself but are fairly common, i am sure tech den or someone like that on the east coast will have them or maybe ebay.
 
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Either that or you could try some sock silencers, you could prob make them yourself, get some polycard, cut out a round form to fit inside the top lip of your sock and drill a heap of holes in it, dont use them myself but are fairly common, i am sure tech den or someone like that on the east coast will have them or maybe ebay.
Cheers, I've just had a play with it all now in terms of opening the valve and putting pump at max etc. Does the wheel even stop turning once it's wide open? Anyway was sucking in air from the overflow at max pump setting so backed off the valve to raise the level again. Forgot to turn off the ATO also so it was screaming at me for being overfull etc LOL.
Forgot to check the 23cm mark, so will play again tomorrow with it.

I'm probably being a little bit anxious with opening it wide etc and then increasing the pump gradually being my first experience with sumps etc. Just don't really want water splashing everywhere with all the air it's sucking down and so on. I've reverted back to previous settings for the moment until I mess with it again.

The water trickle noise from the sock compartment is certainly audible though.
I can hear it quite clearly from across the room (relatively small enclosed room though) with the TV going also.
 

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