Switching from LED back to T5/MH: advice for 6'Lx3'wx27"d tank

[zalick]

Please do not argue or discuss the merits of LED in this thread. That is not the purpose. This is purely to discuss T5/MH in a large deep tank. Thanks!

A little background:
Since the mid 90s I've used power compact, MH, T5 and now LED. In my prior builds I grew all coral like crazy, clams grew gigantic and anemones thrived. I currently have 6 kessil a360 and 4 mitras LX7. I've never struggled with growing anything prior to LED but now I get sluggish growth and the corals don't look happy. I had thriving SPS under my T5 and they all died when I switched to LED. Currently I have all LPS and they are doing OK. After all my SPS died I decided not to add anything else until I figured out my lighting.

I am going to switch back to T5 and/or MH. I have not used MH in probably 15 years. And never used T5 on a tank 27" deep.

My tank has 6" of euro bracing. It also has about a 7-8" center brace.

I'd like the ability to keep anything: sps, clams, anemone.

It doesn't seem like I'd need a 60" fixture as a 48" would likely cover all the area with coral? I also assume I'd want an 8 bulb setup for the width?

So for you all you T5/MH fans, what would you recommend?

I don't care about shimmer. I don't need a fixture with blue moonlight leds to make coral pop because I can just keep 2 of my kessils for the blue.

A 48" 8 bulb sunpower? Just MH with a 400w over each opening?

Thanks!

 

[nereefpat]

T5 guy here. I run a 4' six bulb fixture over a 6x1.5 125 gallon. I use that fixture because I already owned it. It works fine, and SPS are fine everywhere except the outside 10 inches or so on each end... so I just keep zoas, palys, acans, lobo, star polyps, platygyra, and maybe something else I'm forgetting on the ends.

If I had to start over, I would get the 5' fixture, as I feel that would cover the 6' tank with SPS from end to end.

With your 3' width, I would get the 8 bulb fixture. The 27" depth won't be a problem.

Just MH with a 400w over each opening?

That might be a good option, as long as you find big reflectors and hang them high.

@jda , any opinions on lighting a 6x3x27'' with MH?

 

[tgbaby]

I’m setting up a 72x36x24 tank and will be using a single 250w MH over each opening. Unless you want to use a specific 400w bulb, you could still get away with 250w if it’s in a decent reflector.

 

[ca1ore]

A 36” front-to-back depth is much less of a problem than most folks seem to think ..... unless you plan to put corals right up to the front panel. I light mine as if it’s only 24” deep and leave the front 6” for sand. I prefer the aesthetic.

 

[zalick]

A 36” front-to-back depth is much less of a problem than most folks seem to think ..... unless you plan to put corals right up to the front panel. I light mine as if it’s only 24” deep and leave the front 6” for sand. I prefer the aesthetic.

Agreed. Mine is a peninsula and the front end has about 12" until the rockwork starts. I also have at least 6" around the sides with no coral. So functionally the coral sits 12" on either side of the center line for a total of 24" or slightly less.

 

[zalick]

I’m setting up a 72x36x24 tank and will be using a single 250w MH over each opening. Unless want to use a specific 400w bulb, you could still get away with 250w if it’s a decent reflector.

Nice tank! I wish I had built my tank to 24" deep instead of 27"! that last 3" at the bottom, with euro bracing, is really hard to reach.

 

[zalick]

T5 guy here. I run a 4' six bulb fixture over a 6x1.5 125 gallon. I use that fixture because I already owned it. It works fine, and SPS are fine everywhere except the outside 10 inches or so on each end... so I just keep zoas, palys, acans, lobo, star polyps, platygyra, and maybe something else I'm forgetting on the ends.

If I had to start over, I would get the 5' fixture, as I feel that would cover the 6' tank with SPS from end to end.

With your 3' width, I would get the 8 bulb fixture. The 27" depth won't be a problem.



That might be a good option, as long as you find big reflectors and hang them high.

@jda , any opinions on lighting a 6x3x27'' with MH?

Thanks for the info. I stayed away from star polyps for years because they absolutely took over one of my tanks under MH. But I really love how they look so I added them to this new tank and put them in such a way as to be able to control the growth. Oddly enough they have struggled to grow at all under the LEDs. Never thought that would happen with gsp!

 

[maroun.c]

I run my 400 G DT (80x34x32.5) with 3 250W in Lumenbright pendants as well as 4 Radions G4 PRo for supplementation. I ran 4 lines of T5s from back to front with the halides and believe the LEDs so offer better color supplementation option than the T5s (realize you didn't want LED discussion but just mentioning them as potential add on to the halides Vs t5s)
I also run 6 other tanks lit by LED only and all tanks are connected to the same system as DT so same water parameters and flow and relatively similar flow concept in all...
I agree that the growth I get under halides is far better (Still need to run some coral grow out comparison to have amore scientific or quantifiable comparison)
I run 14 K Phoenix halides which I believe are a perfect mix of white and blue for my purpose where I get white with a crisp blue into the mix. I run my radions at 100% on all channels for 2-3 hours a day which contributes to the more intense/white color that I like and believe contributes to faster growth (intensity not color) then at dawn and dusk I can get the increasing blue light effect and end it with the complete blue for a nicer phosphorescence from LPS which I reallly missed when I ran halides and T5s.
you would still be able to run great lighting with Halides and T5s, you just need to experiment with different T5 combination to get the color you want in combination with halides when running then a nice combination for T5 only and finally a nice actinic mix for more phosphorescence.

 

[zalick]

I run my 400 G DT (80x34x32.5) with 3 250W in Lumenbright pendants as well as 4 Radions G4 PRo for supplementation. I ran 4 lines of T5s from back to front with the halides and believe the LEDs so offer better color supplementation option than the T5s (realize you didn't want LED discussion but just mentioning them as potential add on to the halides Vs t5s)
I also run 6 other tanks lit by LED only and all tanks are connected to the same system as DT so same water parameters and flow and relatively similar flow concept in all...
I agree that the growth I get under halides is far better (Still need to run some coral grow out comparison to have amore scientific or quantifiable comparison)
I run 14 K Phoenix halides which I believe are a perfect mix of white and blue for my purpose where I get white with a crisp blue into the mix. I run my radions at 100% on all channels for 2-3 hours a day which contributes to the more intense/white color that I like and believe contributes to faster growth (intensity not color) then at dawn and dusk I can get the increasing blue light effect and end it with the complete blue for a nicer phosphorescence from LPS which I reallly missed when I ran halides and T5s.
you would still be able to run great lighting with Halides and T5s, you just need to experiment with different T5 combination to get the color you want in combination with halides when running then a nice combination for T5 only and finally a nice actinic mix for more phosphorescence.

Do you think I'd be fine running two 250w MH centered over each opening, with no additional supplementation? I would supplement but just curious if that setup would be sufficient itself for growth. The way my current Kessils are setup I could have 4 kessils, one on each side of the MH pendant and angled slightly towards the center.

 

[jda]

I would use 3x 250w HQI back a bit where the corals will be. If you want to keep corals in all 36 inches, then you need something up front, but not many need this. HQI is about 330w which with output in between a traditional 250w bulb/setup and a 400w bulb/setup. Some HQI bulbs will get you almost as much output as a 400w with some power savings. HQI bulbs include 20k Radium and the Giesemann line in Single Ended or 14k Phoenix in Double Ended - there are others, but these are the best of breed for each. HQI can handle 30x30x30 with pretty good ease and only slight drop-off on the periphery where there is no overlap. Reflectors matter where some punch deep better and some spread better, but we can get into these later once you decide if you want 250w, HQI or 400w.

250w HQI and 250w Regular Halide is NOT the same thing... they have different ballasts, different bulbs and different output and coverages. The HQI required m80 ballasts in either SE or DE applications - electronic on HQI or SuperLumens setting is not the same thing and still under powers them like a sports car on 85 octane gas instead of 91... it is still a sports car, just not all of the sports car that you purchased... if you are going to go HQI, then get the right ballasts. I feel that HQI is perfect for tanks like this since it more power than a regular 250w setup without buying more stuff. 3 of these over your tank is about 1000w per hour... or for me 8-10 cents and hour and less than $1 a day. This is not any different than using 6x Radion xr30s and a few T5s which is very similar wattage. This is pretty cheap for a large tank, which are not cheap in general and I spend more than this on heating my tanks.

I run just MH over my tanks with no supplements. Not only are they not needed, if you don't run them, you can save a ton of money with bulbs, fixtures and running costs and in larger tanks, the MH alone can use less wattage than LEDs with the same output and coverage. If you want some dusk/dawn, then cool, but turn them off while the MH run and save the hours and wattage - just no need while the MH are on. You will get all kinds of opinions from people who supplement and it is totally personal since the corals don't really need it... unless you want to run the MH for less than 8 hours.

My re-build thread has corals under 14k Phoenix alone with no supplements. I run them for 9 hours, I think... been so long since I looked at the time. The photos are straight from iPhone X something (Xr, Xs... I forget and don't care) without any editing. I have a 20" Glass center brace and I put a MH right over the top of it (old Oceanic tank if you remember those)... about 10% less output if I keep the glass clean... more if I do not. I hate it, but not much that I can do. The corals under it grow just fine. I have a MH right in the middle of it.

If you decide on 250w Halide, or HQI, then be SURE and use the right terms in your future posts to get the right help. It sucks that HQI had 250w put on the front of them when they are not 250w, but that is what we have to live with.

A 48" and 24", or a pair of 36" Sunpowers could do this too. You can get 10 bulb SunPowers, but you might have to order from the EU and wait. Most of these should free up with the EU tariffs likely to be pulled near Jan 20th, but who knows what is going to happen. I have a friend who used a pair of 6 bulb Sunpowers over his 200DD (48x38x27) and it has good coverage. I buy three Phoenix bulbs for $45 and use them 18 months and he buys 12 T5s bulbs and uses them the same.

 

[maroun.c]

If u can squeeze 3 halides and 2 or 4 leds that would be better id say this way tank would be uniformly lit with halides and leds are for supplementation only...

 

[zalick]

I would use 3x 250w HQI back a bit where the corals will be. If you want to keep corals in all 36 inches, then you need something up front, but not many need this. HQI is about 330w which with output in between a traditional 250w bulb/setup and a 400w bulb/setup. Some HQI bulbs will get you almost as much output as a 400w with some power savings. HQI bulbs include 20k Radium and the Giesemann line in Single Ended or 14k Phoenix in Double Ended - there are others, but these are the best of breed for each. HQI can handle 30x30x30 with pretty good ease and only slight drop-off on the periphery where there is no overlap. Reflectors matter where some punch deep better and some spread better, but we can get into these later once you decide if you want 250w, HQI or 400w.

250w HQI and 250w Regular Halide is NOT the same thing... they have different ballasts, different bulbs and different output and coverages. The HQI required m80 ballasts in either SE or DE applications - electronic on HQI or SuperLumens setting is not the same thing and still under powers them like a sports car on 85 octane gas instead of 91... it is still a sports car, just not all of the sports car that you purchased... if you are going to go HQI, then get the right ballasts. I feel that HQI is perfect for tanks like this since it more power than a regular 250w setup without buying more stuff. 3 of these over your tank is about 1000w per hour... or for me 8-10 cents and hour and less than $1 a day. This is not any different than using 6x Radion xr30s and a few T5s which is very similar wattage. This is pretty cheap for a large tank, which are not cheap in general and I spend more than this on heating my tanks.

I run just MH over my tanks with no supplements. Not only are they not needed, if you don't run them, you can save a ton of money with bulbs, fixtures and running costs and in larger tanks, the MH alone can use less wattage than LEDs with the same output and coverage. If you want some dusk/dawn, then cool, but turn them off while the MH run and save the hours and wattage - just no need while the MH are on. You will get all kinds of opinions from people who supplement and it is totally personal since the corals don't really need it... unless you want to run the MH for less than 8 hours.

My re-build thread has corals under 14k Phoenix alone with no supplements. I run them for 9 hours, I think... been so long since I looked at the time. The photos are straight from iPhone X something (Xr, Xs... I forget and don't care) without any editing. I have a 20" Glass center brace and I put a MH right over the top of it (old Oceanic tank if you remember those)... about 10% less output if I keep the glass clean... more if I do not. I hate it, but not much that I can do. The corals under it grow just fine. I have a MH right in the middle of it.

If you decide on 250w Halide, or HQI, then be SURE and use the right terms in your future posts to get the right help. It sucks that HQI had 250w put on the front of them when they are not 250w, but that is what we have to live with.

A 48" and 24", or a pair of 36" Sunpowers could do this too. You can get 10 bulb SunPowers, but you might have to order from the EU and wait. Most of these should free up with the EU tariffs likely to be pulled near Jan 20th, but who knows what is going to happen. I have a friend who used a pair of 6 bulb Sunpowers over his 200DD (48x38x27) and it has good coverage. I buy three Phoenix bulbs for $45 and use them 18 months and he buys 12 T5s bulbs and uses them the same.

Thanks for the info! It's been so long since I've used MH.... I think I've settled on going only MH. I can always use my current LEDs as very expensive moonlights if needed.

I believe my last MH setup was running a 10k Giesemann single ended bulb. I have the last setup in my attic still, which I'll check tonight, bulb, reflector and ballast....

So you'd recommend 3 - 250w HQI setup for my configuration? I researched this a couple years ago and remember reading there is a big difference in ballast quality. Do you have a recommended brand of ballast? Cost is not a real concern.

My heaters run every day, so the whole discussion of heat and electric usage in my case is an absolute wash. I assume my heaters would pretty much stop running with a MH setup and I'd consider that a very good thing!

 

[zalick]

If u can squeeze 3 halides and 2 or 4 leds that would be better id say this way tank would be uniformly lit with halides and leds are for supplementation only...

Easy to do. My current Kessils are attached to rails on the outer edges of my canopy and angled inwards. I wouldn't even need to change anything. Just attached the halide fixtures dead center to my canopy.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Have you looked at the giesemann spectra? Both MH and T5 in a sleek looking package.

 

[jda]

m80 ballasts from Hamilton are true HQI. Let us know which reflectors that you have - photos are even fine. Old stuff is still good if the reflectors are still clean and bright. I would put three on the tank, one for each 24 inches of side to side.

My heaters still run more than my lights with my large tanks. In the summer, my tanks can go up a degree, but mostly because we don't use the AC since a 100 degree day will be in the 50s or 60s in a few hours after the sun goes down (15% humidity has it benefits), so I do use a fan over my open top in July. In all, the heat is a blessing and I welcome it, but I also could take care of all if it if I wanted to. I have 6 300w heaters in each of my tanks, so the benefit of the MH slows them down for a while when they are on.

 

[YankeeTankee]

Giesemann Spectra 48 - m80 or electronic hqi ballast - Radium - blue plus/ coral plus. Beautiful.

 

[jda]

I have a Spectra over a frag tank. They are wonderful fixtures. The reflectors are smaller and don't cover as large of an area, but they also have 4x T5s that you can use to help with coverage. I have 2 more in storage that I plan to use on a huge build since I like how the look, but I plan to use the T5s on them. Basically, I will use a bit more wattage with the T5s to keep the form factor since they MH don't cover larger areas quite as good as a retro reflector. I would use a 6 foot Spectra on 6 foot tank. They are not being imported right now, but this might change in the new year - they are still being made. I got all of mine used. They are single ended, but you can wire them to use any ballast - the make a Infiniti which is the same thing in Double Ended. I am going to use 20k Radiums in mine or even the 17.5k Giesemann, which is not as big of a deal since I can use T5s to change the color a bit.

 

[zalick]

m80 ballasts from Hamilton are true HQI. Let us know which reflectors that you have - photos are even fine. Old stuff is still good if the reflectors are still clean and bright. I would put three on the tank, one for each 24 inches of side to side.

My heaters still run more than my lights with my large tanks. In the summer, my tanks can go up a degree, but mostly because we don't use the AC since a 100 degree day will be in the 50s or 60s in a few hours after the sun goes down (15% humidity has it benefits), so I do use a fan over my open top in July. In all, the heat is a blessing and I welcome it, but I also could take care of all if it if I wanted to. I have 6 300w heaters in each of my tanks, so the benefit of the MH slows them down for a while when they are on.

I think my reflector was not quite as advanced as the ones I see now. Its just mirrored aluminum shaped like this \__/ also fairly heavy. Definitely think getting a new reflectors is a good idea.

Aquacave has Hamilton Cozumel in stock for $149. BRS has the 400w on sale for $99.

 

[Rmckoy]

T5 guy here. I run a 4' six bulb fixture over a 6x1.5 125 gallon. I use that fixture because I already owned it. It works fine, and SPS are fine everywhere except the outside 10 inches or so on each end... so I just keep zoas, palys, acans, lobo, star polyps, platygyra, and maybe something else I'm forgetting on the ends.

If I had to start over, I would get the 5' fixture, as I feel that would cover the 6' tank with SPS from end to end.

With your 3' width, I would get the 8 bulb fixture. The 27" depth won't be a problem.



That might be a good option, as long as you find big reflectors and hang them high.

@jda , any opinions on lighting a 6x3x27'' with MH?

Hmmm interesting enough .
I currently have a 8 bulb 48” fixture and didn’t think it was enough .
I looked into the 60” ati fixture but it’s not quite in the budget yet .
I have the same issue , the last 10-12” on either end are shadowed but not a bad thing .
sps are all in the middle ,

everything is happy so far .
why change it .

 

[zalick]

Hmmm interesting enough .
I currently have a 8 bulb 48” fixture and didn’t think it was enough .
I looked into the 60” ati fixture but it’s not quite in the budget yet .
I have the same issue , the last 10-12” on either end are shadowed but not a bad thing .
sps are all in the middle ,

everything is happy so far .
why change it .

I looked at the 60" fixture and actually purchased some 60" reflectors, ballast etc to build my own. Then had difficulty sourcing the 60" bulbs! So I abandoned that idea.... Now the pieces are sitting in a closet collecting dust.