Tang showing symptoms of something? In QT

[BurtG]

Normally I would spend a day or 2 researching the symptoms. But this seems to have come on fast so I figured I'd post a video for yalls input which might be faster.

I just got this guy last week. He's on day 7 of copper in the QT. Copper is at 2.31ppm. Tank gets a heavy water change every 2 days. I don't see any ammonia on either of the 2 in tank checkers. He was fine the first few days. He's been and still is eating well. But he seems like he's struggling to swim and now has this discoloration...

What do yall think it is?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Normally I would spend a day or 2 researching the symptoms. But this seems to have come on fast so I figured I'd post a video for yalls input which might be faster.

I just got this guy last week. He's on day 7 of copper in the QT. Copper is at 2.31ppm. Tank gets a heavy water change every 2 days. I don't see any ammonia on either of the 2 in tank checkers. He was fine the first few days. He's been and still is eating well. But he seems like he's struggling to swim and now has this discoloration...

What do yall think it is?

The fish has an injury that is becoming infected. In addition, there is a lot of debris in there and the frequent water changes are not giving any bacteria a chance to develop and how are you restoring copper back to therapeutic level (which should be 2.5) and what are you using to test copper levels?
For treatment, add Kanaplex which is ok with copper at the level you have to address this. the swimming motion is typical of a kole tang.
Is there a reason you are changing water frequently? Only change if ammonia is elevated and frequent changes are interrupting the treatment cycle

 

[BurtG]

The fish has an injury that is becoming infected. In addition, there is a lot of debris in there and the frequent water changes are not giving any bacteria a chance to develop and how are you restoring copper back to therapeutic level (which should be 2.5) and what are you using to test copper levels?
For treatment, add Kanaplex which is ok with copper at the level you have to address this. the swimming motion is typical of a kole tang.
Is there a reason you are changing water frequently? Only change if ammonia is elevated and frequent changes are interrupting the treatment cycle

The debris is mostly from the food that's been fed today. I've been feeding multiple foods heavy for him and a blenny and doing a 50% water change every 2 days to remove uneaten food and debris. There is an aged sponge/air filter that I took from an established tank so hopefully there is a decent amount of bacteria there. I've been dosing coppersafe to the new water before adding it during the change. I'm in the understanding copper safe just needs to be above 2.0ppm and under 2.5ppm. Should I try to bump it up to 2.5?

I dont have any kanaplex currently, would anything that I have on hand work?

Meds on hand: fluconazole, Maracyn 2, Ruby Reef Rally Pro, Methylene Blue, Metroplex, Neoplex, and i have Nitrofurazone on order.

If not I will order some tonight.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The debris is mostly from the food that's been fed today. I've been feeding multiple foods heavy for him and a blenny and doing a 50% water change every 2 days to remove uneaten food and debris. There is an aged sponge/air filter that I took from an established tank so hopefully there is a decent amount of bacteria there. I've been dosing coppersafe to the new water before adding it during the change. I'm in the understanding copper safe just needs to be above 2.0ppm and under 2.5ppm. Should I try to bump it up to 2.5?

I dont have any kanaplex currently, would anything that I have on hand work?

Meds on hand: fluconazole, Maracyn 2, Ruby Reef Rally Pro, Methylene Blue, Metroplex, Neoplex, and i have Nitrofurazone on order.

If not I will order some tonight.

Maracyn 2 or my prefernce- Ruby rally will take longer but very safe
I would not feed heavy but what they can eat within 2 mins. Easier to add food than to remove it. maintain what copper level you have currently

 

[BurtG]

Maracyn 2 or my prefernce- Ruby rally will take longer but very safe
I would not feed heavy but what they can eat within 2 mins. Easier to add food than to remove it. maintain what copper level you have currently

Will Do. I appreciate the help!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That is a strange case. The mark on its side does appear to be an injury. The water does have a lot of particulates in it. Some of the swimming behavior I see (the darting off) is considered "flashing" and can be a sign of flukes. However, it can also be a sign of particulates in the water - they touch the fish's skin, and make it squirm and jump (because it feels like a parasite to them).
Are there any other fish in with it that could have cause the presumed injury?

Keep up with to copper. If you are familiar with the process, you could give the fish a 5 minute FW dip. Then, start antibiotics. The idea is that the FW dip will buy you some time if the issue is flukes, but starting anbtibiotics will help address the skin issue.

Jay

 

[BurtG]

That is a strange case. The mark on its side does appear to be an injury. The water does have a lot of particulates in it. Some of the swimming behavior I see (the darting off) is considered "flashing" and can be a sign of flukes. However, it can also be a sign of particulates in the water - they touch the fish's skin, and make it squirm and jump (because it feels like a parasite to them).
Are there any other fish in with it that could have cause the presumed injury?

Keep up with to copper. If you are familiar with the process, you could give the fish a 5 minute FW dip. Then, start antibiotics. The idea is that the FW dip will buy you some time if the issue is flukes, but starting anbtibiotics will help address the skin issue.

Jay

I was sitting and watching him more last night and it looks like there are marks on both sides of his body. Yeah the water was pretty dirty from him shredding some old nori. I cleaned it up last night before adding the antibiotics. I will just stick with cleaner (and less) foods to reduce how much I need to clean. I was just feeding heavy since they are new and I've had issues with new fish not eating well. So I try to dump a bunch of options in just to get them eating something.

He has been flashing alot. That's what made me look at him closer and notice the marks. There is also a Midas blenny in the tank with him. I've been watching them and haven't noticed any aggression between them. But its very possible the tang sustained injuries while in the tank at the fish shop or in shipping to the shop. I didn't see any signs of damage when i was buying him. But maybe it just wasn't obvious until the infection?

I can try a FW dip if needed. Ive never done one before. They just seems so aggressive and unnatural. It looks like torture on the fish. I started Maracyn 2 last night, I went with that over Ruby rally since I noticed the marks on both sides and was worried rally might be to slow. Will having started the antibiotics already have a negative effect if I do a fw dip during the treatment? I'd assume it's not recommended to dose prazipro ontop of the Maracyn 2 and copper... that seems like a lot and something would likely go wrong lol.

I can try to get a better video of him tonight and post it to see if there is anything yall can see that I'm missing. Incase it's something else.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was sitting and watching him more last night and it looks like there are marks on both sides of his body. Yeah the water was pretty dirty from him shredding some old nori. I cleaned it up last night before adding the antibiotics. I will just stick with cleaner (and less) foods to reduce how much I need to clean. I was just feeding heavy since they are new and I've had issues with new fish not eating well. So I try to dump a bunch of options in just to get them eating something.

He has been flashing alot. That's what made me look at him closer and notice the marks. There is also a Midas blenny in the tank with him. I've been watching them and haven't noticed any aggression between them. But its very possible the tang sustained injuries while in the tank at the fish shop or in shipping to the shop. I didn't see any signs of damage when i was buying him. But maybe it just wasn't obvious until the infection?

I can try a FW dip if needed. Ive never done one before. They just seems so aggressive and unnatural. It looks like torture on the fish. I started Maracyn 2 last night, I went with that over Ruby rally since I noticed the marks on both sides and was worried rally might be to slow. Will having started the antibiotics already have a negative effect if I do a fw dip during the treatment? I'd assume it's not recommended to dose prazipro ontop of the Maracyn 2 and copper... that seems like a lot and something would likely go wrong lol.

I can try to get a better video of him tonight and post it to see if there is anything yall can see that I'm missing. Incase it's something else.

It's possible the injuries are self-inflicted, from scratching due to flukes. If you do decide to try a FW daip, here is some info I wrote about that:

“Freshwater dips” are commonly used to dislodge parasites from the skin of marine fishes. To perform these dips, the fish is captured and placed in a dimly lit container of clean freshwater the same temperature as the aquarium system it came from. Do not use reverse osmosis or deionized water, as there is no buffer capacity and the pH can drop too low. Dechlorinated tap water is suitable unless it is very acidic. The dip container should be covered with a clear material so that the fish is kept from jumping out, yet can still be observed for overt signs of stress. Hold the fish in the freshwater for five minutes. If acute stress is seen, the dip may need to be terminated early. The idea is to dislodge the parasites, without unduly harming the fish. Many aquarists opt to use reverse osmosis water, and adjust the pH to match the aquarium, but this is simply not necessary if the pH of the freshwater is between 7.5 and 8.5. Some advocate to not aerate the water during the dip, but this is incorrect. The water motion from air bubbles can help keep the fish active so that they can be better assessed for stress. Additionally, the air bubbles help dislodge some parasites during the dip process.

Some caveats:

• Some fish will give extreme reactions to being dipped (hepatus tangs for example), as long as they were swimming well before the dip, it is best to ignore that behavior and continue for a full five minutes.
• Moribund fish can be dipped, but understand that the acute stress from the dip may prove fatal. The dip water should still be checked for parasites in order to possibly help any remaining fish. Moribund would include any fish that was easy to capture or a fish with a respiration rate of 200+ BPM.
• Choose the type of net wisely, some fish have spines that will become caught in the netting. Have a pair of scissors handy to cut the net if this happens.
• Dropping a fish while moving it to and from the dip is common, take care. Some fish have venomous spines, so know that before trying to handle any fish.
• Fish shaking their heads violently after capture is one cause of mechanical exophthalmos (popeye), so try to gently restrain them in the net while moving them.

Jay

 

[BurtG]

Here's a new video I just took. I think the splotches have gotten worse.

 

[BurtG]

He managed to sit still long enough to get a close up.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Here's a new video I just took. I think the splotches have gotten worse.

Yes- this is bacterial and kanaplex should address this but act fast on treatment

 

[BurtG]

Yes- this is bacterial and kanaplex should address this but act fast on treatment

Ok thanks, I have Kanaplex on order, it should be here Sunday. I started the tank on Maracyn 2 last night. Is there anything else in the list below that I should run with it as well (like combining the ruby rally with the Maracyn 2 and copper? Or just keep the Maracyn 2 and copper going till Sunday then switch to Kanaplex and copper after? Or just finish the Maracyn 2 treatment first and see how the tang looks?

Meds on hand: fluconazole, Maracyn 2, Ruby Reef Rally Pro, Methylene Blue, Metroplex, Neoplex, and Nitrofurazone.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok thanks, I have Kanaplex on order, it should be here Sunday. I started the tank on Maracyn 2 last night. Is there anything else in the list below that I should run with it as well (like combining the ruby rally with the Maracyn 2 and copper? Or just keep the Maracyn 2 and copper going till Sunday then switch to Kanaplex and copper after? Or just finish the Maracyn 2 treatment first and see how the tang looks?

Meds on hand: fluconazole, Maracyn 2, Ruby Reef Rally Pro, Methylene Blue, Metroplex, Neoplex, and Nitrofurazone.

This has gotten much worse. See the faster breathing? That means the disease has begun to be systemic - throughout the fish's body. I don't think it will last until Sunday. Maracyn 2 is minocycline, not the best antibiotic, but not the worst. You could stick with that, but I prefer Neoplex. Trouble is, I've never run both those drugs at the same time, so I can't advise you on that. Antibiotics take time to work - "hunting" for drugs, where you switch up every day or so will guarantee you won't cure the fish.

Jay

 

[BurtG]

This has gotten much worse. See the faster breathing? That means the disease has begun to be systemic - throughout the fish's body. I don't think it will last until Sunday. Maracyn 2 is minocycline, not the best antibiotic, but not the worst. You could stick with that, but I prefer Neoplex. Trouble is, I've never run both those drugs at the same time, so I can't advise you on that. Antibiotics take time to work - "hunting" for drugs, where you switch up every day or so will guarantee you won't cure the fish.

Jay

Dang...
Well if that's the case... I feel like I may as well roll the dice and dose both at the same time. If I was on my death bed I'd want them to try everything to save me even if it was experimental....
I guess I can turn this into an experiment and try Neo and Maracyn at the same time...
Should I stop the copper if I'm going to try that and just restart later it if the tang pulls through?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Dang...
Well if that's the case... I feel like I may as well roll the dice and dose both at the same time. If I was on my death bed I'd want them to try everything to save me even if it was experimental....
I guess I can turn this into an experiment and try Neo and Maracyn at the same time...
Should I stop the copper if I'm going to try that and just restart later it if the tang pulls through?

I just don't see any symptoms of a protozoan infection, so I worry that copper right now, would only stress the fish further.

Jay

 

[BurtG]

I just don't see any symptoms of a protozoan infection, so I worry that copper right now, would only stress the fish further.

Jay

Thanks, I will remember that I should drop copper if I'm fighting bacterial infections in the future.

Sadly I found the tang dead just now.

I did dose Neo last night. So im not sure if it was the combo of neo and maracyn that kicked the tang or just the infection getting too bad.

But the Midas blenny is still ok. It's not showing any signs of infection from what I can see.

I'd assume the path forward now is to do a water change to start removing the antibiotics and just keep the copper going to finish the quarantine on the Midas?

Also just for future preparation. Would you recommend I get some Enrofloxacin on hand for future infections? From what ive been reading the last couple days that seems like one of the most powerful options to have ready. Though for how fast this tang went idk if it would have even been able to save him. Or maybe Nitrofuracin Green Powder?

I guess the lesson I learned is I need to pay closer attention to the fish in QT... I wasn't really looking at him that close. I probably could have gotten ahead of this a few days earlier.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, I will remember that I should drop copper if I'm fighting bacterial infections in the future.

Sadly I found the tang dead just now.

I did dose Neo last night. So im not sure if it was the combo of neo and maracyn that kicked the tang or just the infection getting too bad.

But the Midas blenny is still ok. It's not showing any signs of infection from what I can see.

I'd assume the path forward now is to do a water change to start removing the antibiotics and just keep the copper going to finish the quarantine on the Midas?

Also just for future preparation. Would you recommend I get some Enrofloxacin on hand for future infections? From what ive been reading the last couple days that seems like one of the most powerful options to have ready. Though for how fast this tang went idk if it would have even been able to save him. Or maybe Nitrofuracin Green Powder?

I guess the lesson I learned is I need to pay closer attention to the fish in QT... I wasn't really looking at him that close. I probably could have gotten ahead of this a few days earlier.

Sorry to hear. Yes, I would return to copper. Enrofloxacin is a good choice to have on hand if you can get it.
Jay

 

[BurtG]

Thanks, will do.