Tank birthday, 47+ years

[cameronh]

Thank you Paul!

 

[sundog101]

I just decided (possibly stupidly) to feed my corals yeast. I feed it to my worms and they are always smiling but now my tank is all cloudy from yeast. So either the tank will crash or It will make one heck of a salty loaf of bread.

I've fed yogurt to white worms before. Maybe corals would like that :D.

 

[Annette Garcia]

Paul I don't quarantine my fish, corals, or seahorses.

 

[Paul B]

Well Jen, then you are going to have to drive here to get them. I am sure they would love you even though they may miss my bald, sexy head. :D

 

[Paul B]

My white worms also eat yogurt but they don't eat Keish, because real worms don't eat keish.
Thanks guys. And Girls. :)

Sounds like there are a lot of Supermodels here, which is a good thing. :p

It amazes me that three people read this thread. I thought only my fish read it and one or two Sherpa's in Tibet. :rolleyes:

I really appreciate it "guys".

I just looked, this thread is almost 6 years old. :eek:

 

[Chasmodes]

Chasmodes, if we were stranded on a desert Island I could build you a flat screen TV from two coconut shells and a hermit crab. If it was a blue legged hermit crab, I could build it in Blue ray. :D

But if there was also a Supermodel stranded with us, I will leave tying to be rescued to you as I would be fine. :rolleyes:

You crack me up Paul. Along with posts like this that keep me in stitches, I appreciate your wisdom as well as many on here. Also, I may be late for Veterans Day to post this, but it applies all the time, and that is that I also appreciate and thank you for your service.

 

[Paul B]

Chasmodes, speaking of stitches I just came back from the Doctors office. I had shoulder surgery 3 weeks ago so I had to go for the follow up appointment.
I didn't see the doctor, I assume he was playing golf but I did see the physicians assistant which was good because she was a Supermodel. She took out the stitches on the four places where the guy dug holes in my shoulder and we talked a while being I had five shoulder surgeries already and I liked her boots. I worked construction all my life so I wore out some of my parts. The Dr. put two bolts, anchors or toggle bolts in the bone but he had trouble doing that because all the good real estate was already taken from the last 4 times I had this done. The tendon was to thin, probably from lifting Supermodels up on my shoulder so he had to take a piece of something to re inforce it. I am not sure if he used a sliver of muscle or a piece from the sole of my shoe but in 6 months I will be cured as long as I only lift very skinny Supermodels and only buy light fish like bluestripe pipefish and clown gobies, no groupers.
I still have to wear a sling for a month and go to physical therapy. I went to the therapy place after the Doctor to make an appointment. I like physical therapy because they also have Supermodels working there and I know them from the last surgeries I had. They also have good candy on the desk and a Siamese fighting fish that we spend time talking about. Next door is a bakery and coffee shop so what's not to like?
In between the doctor and the physical therapy I noticed that a new LFS opened up. I went in just to be nosy and the guy recognized me from one of these forums. He showed me how he feeds the fish using flake food. To me that is a no no and I explained to him what I think he should feed. He never heard of blackworms, or much else so I explained it to him. The guy actually hugged me and kept asking me to come back. I probably will as the owner is a very nice guy and I hope he makes it as it is a tough business. :cool:

 

[Paul B]

I want to talk about quarantining, or not quarantining. I get in trouble for my opinion for this all the time (yes, even on this forum which is pretty liberal with your methods) and that is one reason I don't post on that big forum any more. People have the wrong idea and for some reason very few people grasp the concept. Quarantining if fine, if that is what you want to do, go for it as it is one way to run a tank. But if you don't want to quarantine, there are things you should do or you will lose your tank to disease. You can't just have a normal tank that you set up a year or two ago and decide to not quarantine. There is a process that goes along with it just like there is a process that goes along with quarantining and if you do it wrong, you will lose your fish and condemn the system you are using.
First and foremost your fish need to get into excellent shape, which we should strive for no matter what system we use. It takes about two months to get most fish into excellent shape if it is done correctly. I know it takes about 7 weeks with damsels so I am guessing on other fish.
Just because they are swimming around looking at you while whistling doesn't mean they are in great shape. If they are not spawning or making spawning gestures, they are not healthy no matter what their doctor says.
To do this we need to eliminate the dry, sterile foods like flakes, pellets and freeze dried anything. Use them in an emergency or if you go on vacation and you need to put it in a feeder but never as a way to feed fish every day. If you want to use dry foods, "keep quarantining". I mean that. ( yes, even expensive dry foods)

I wrote many articles about this so I won't go into the scientific research on it.
Next get some fresh frozen foods or the absolutely best, live blackworms. By fresh frozen I mean get something like clams that you can buy live (not if you live in Arizona). Buy the biggest live clams you can. Chowder clams here in New York can weigh a couple of pounds. Partially open the clam and insert something inside like a nail. This will make it easier to open the thing after it is frozen. It takes 2 days to freeze a big clam.
Open the clam and shave off paper thin slices with a knife. Make a dent like you would do in chocolate and slice off ribbons of clam. I supplement the clam with frozen Mysis, LRS food and live worms.

This diet, "every day" will get your fish into spawning condition. That won't necessarily make them immune especially if they have been in your tank for a long time or were quarantined for 72 days.
I think the best thing to do if you are really worried about disease is to keep your quarantine tank and put the new fish in there when you get them. Set up that tank with hiding places of rock, not pvc. Give them hiding places and light it as you would a regular fish tank. Feed them the diet I stated and observe the fish for a week or two but do not medicate with anything. If you see one or two spots on the fish, I also would not medicate as that is usually normal. Of course if the fish gets a bunch of spots, starts shaking and texting SOS there is something wrong and you would have to replace the rock with PVC and use copper.
I personally would use copper "and" a diatom filter as that would clean the fish of any parasites in a couple of days.

Remember, I never have to do this part because my fish don't get sick and yours probably won't either. I am talking about a healthy "looking" fish you buy from a LFS. That fish was probably in the ocean 2 weeks ago and has some sort of immunity in it's system. Our goal is to nurture that immunity, not suppress it, with the proper food and very low stress.
We want the fish immune, not sterile and to do this we need to get food into it along with "live" bacteria at every meal.
After a couple of months your fish should start to spawn (if you have fish that will spawn). Even fish that are not paired will start to clean a nest, bite you when you put your hand in there and chase other fish away.

If you do all this and if your fish are now in spawning condition, you can now add fish from an LFS without being concerned about parasites as now parasites should continue to boost the fishes immune system.
I have been running my tank like this for decades and I may have invented this system (along with the internet, unless that was Brian Williams) It works, I can prove it works and if you don't like the idea of this, keep quarantining as there is nothing wrong with that as long as you can quarantine everything and never want to use anything natural from the sea. Most inland people need to do that anyway.
Now you can write an article saying I am advocating Russian Roulette and don't know a fish from a duck billed platypus.

 

[gettaReef]

I really like your philosophy here. My LFS carried live black worms that I was feeding my fish, which they loved, flourished on, and got healthy from. Unfortunately a few months ago my LFS closed its doors as the man retired and for some reason his Son didn't want to change careers and get into this lucrative business! Now I have nowhere to buy my fish their live black worms, and has resulted to me feeding them OK frozen foods, cruddy flakes, and, yes, even a deadly pellet or two from time to time. My question: do you know what type of place/business would sell live black worms other than a LFS (the other ones around here do not)? I considered a Bait Shop may carry them, but then thought maybe not because of how small these worms are they'd take either a child's hand or an anorexic supermodel's small hands to get on a fish hook. Or is there a place to order live black worms online? I'm quite open to breeding them....I just need a batch to start. I do have your book for guidance (as well as a way to communicate directly with the Author in case of trouble!).

AND, since I live far to the left of the east coast, and far to the right of the west coast, right smack in the middle (in Iowa), live seafood is hard to comeby. I would love to feed my fish other live foods than just black worms & brine shrimp (which I often breed and feed as well), such as the clams you speak so highly of. Any ideas for other live foods I might be able to use? Or that may be available locally here or carried at some type of store in the midwest? Or possibly there are options of purchasing these type of food online (which is financially reasonable)? I know next to nothing about edible clams, but would buying some at my local grocery store and feeding that, even though it may be more than 2 days frozen, be beneficial or sufficient for this philosophy?

In the meantime, I thought I'd try catching some earthworms, washing off all the dirt/crud, and try feeding the fish some tasty earth worm! They are quite large compared to black worms so figured I'd slice em up or make an earthworm smoothy. Do you see any problem or potential issues with feeding that? You think they'll readily eat it? And, most importantly, will the fish actually enjoy the taste of fresh earthworm and will it have the afrodesiac effect you claim other live foods to have on fish (which I can attest to when I began feeding live black worms)?


Anyways, as you can see I'm in a live food bind here. Thanks for any help you can provide, it's much appreciated!

 

[Paul B]

Hello GettaReef. I think I mention in the book that you can raise whiteworms fairly easily and they live for hours in salt water unlike blackworms. You order a small culture of them, keep them in potting soil and feed them bread with yeast flakes and yogurt on it. You can raise a million of them easily. Search on google for them.
The blackworms can be ordered on line but you would need to make a large worm keeper and cycle it first. You can't order small amounts so unless you have someone to split them with, make a large keeper. That is in my book but you need one 4 times larger.
I am glad you realize blackworms are such a great food. If everyone used them there would be much less disease forums but I get in trouble when I say that as many people just don't grasp that concept.
You can use earthworms. I know the fish and anemones love them and they should be as healthy

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I want to talk about quarantining, or not quarantining. I get in trouble for my opinion for this all the time (yes, even on this forum which is pretty liberal with your methods) and that is one reason I don't post on that big forum any more. People have the wrong idea and for some reason very few people grasp the concept. Quarantining if fine, if that is what you want to do, go for it as it is one way to run a tank. But if you don't want to quarantine, there are things you should do or you will lose your tank to disease. You can't just have a normal tank that you set up a year or two ago and decide to not quarantine. There is a process that goes along with it just like there is a process that goes along with quarantining and if you do it wrong, you will lose your fish and condemn the system you are using.
First and foremost your fish need to get into excellent shape, which we should strive for no matter what system we use. It takes about two months to get most fish into excellent shape if it is done correctly. I know it takes about 7 weeks with damsels so I am guessing on other fish.
Just because they are swimming around looking at you while whistling doesn't mean they are in great shape. If they are not spawning or making spawning gestures, they are not healthy no matter what their doctor says.
To do this we need to eliminate the dry, sterile foods like flakes, pellets and freeze dried anything. Use them in an emergency or if you go on vacation and you need to put it in a feeder but never as a way to feed fish every day. If you want to use dry foods, "keep quarantining". I mean that. ( yes, even expensive dry foods)

I wrote many articles about this so I won't go into the scientific research on it.
Next get some fresh frozen foods or the absolutely best, live blackworms. By fresh frozen I mean get something like clams that you can buy live (not if you live in Arizona). Buy the biggest live clams you can. Chowder clams here in New York can weigh a couple of pounds. Partially open the clam and insert something inside like a nail. This will make it easier to open the thing after it is frozen. It takes 2 days to freeze a big clam.
Open the clam and shave off paper thin slices with a knife. Make a dent like you would do in chocolate and slice off ribbons of clam. I supplement the clam with frozen Mysis, LRS food and live worms.

This diet, "every day" will get your fish into spawning condition. That won't necessarily make them immune especially if they have been in your tank for a long time or were quarantined for 72 days.
I think the best thing to do if you are really worried about disease is to keep your quarantine tank and put the new fish in there when you get them. Set up that tank with hiding places of rock, not pvc. Give them hiding places and light it as you would a regular fish tank. Feed them the diet I stated and observe the fish for a week or two but do not medicate with anything. If you see one or two spots on the fish, I also would not medicate as that is usually normal. Of course if the fish gets a bunch of spots, starts shaking and texting SOS there is something wrong and you would have to replace the rock with PVC and use copper.
I personally would use copper "and" a diatom filter as that would clean the fish of any parasites in a couple of days.

Remember, I never have to do this part because my fish don't get sick and yours probably won't either. I am talking about a healthy "looking" fish you buy from a LFS. That fish was probably in the ocean 2 weeks ago and has some sort of immunity in it's system. Our goal is to nurture that immunity, not suppress it, with the proper food and very low stress.
We want the fish immune, not sterile and to do this we need to get food into it along with "live" bacteria at every meal.
After a couple of months your fish should start to spawn (if you have fish that will spawn). Even fish that are not paired will start to clean a nest, bite you when you put your hand in there and chase other fish away.

If you do all this and if your fish are now in spawning condition, you can now add fish from an LFS without being concerned about parasites as now parasites should continue to boost the fishes immune system.
I have been running my tank like this for decades and I may have invented this system (along with the internet, unless that was Brian Williams) It works, I can prove it works and if you don't like the idea of this, keep quarantining as there is nothing wrong with that as long as you can quarantine everything and never want to use anything natural from the sea. Most inland people need to do that anyway.
Now you can write an article saying I am advocating Russian Roulette and don't know a fish from a duck billed platypus.

Ya know Paul, I was thinking about this last night. I also was reading back on several old threads looking for ,I dont remember what, mandarins I think,on that big old forum where you chimed in. It was actually a thread about B Fenner. Good dude, lives down here in SD, read and learned a lot about conditioning and qt of mandarins when I first started. I know him personally now, pretty sure he's bummed my hair is longer than his. But your sentiment on QT was the same in that thread as in this post I quoted. Here's the thing that woke me up this morning.

Too many folks think you don't believe in QT. Too many folks also think the QT is JUST where you pump them full of meds when you buy them. Too many folks think the QT is a treatment tank.

this.

Of course if the fish gets a bunch of spots, starts shaking and texting SOS there is something wrong and you would have to replace the rock with PVC and use copper.

Folks don't get this. Its what the book says to do actually.

They also dont get that youve been trying to figure out why the conditions in your tank have become so good that the fish do so well even if they are sick when you put them in. That was another thread.

I was going to chime in again on the Two Methodologies thread you bumped yesterday, as I was in the convo, but I did something unusual for me, I decided to think before talking.

For some reason the the takeaway most folks get from your work is to not QT. Probably because they don't read to the end of the page, or they get distracted by suddenly googling supermodels.
Or, I think this is true, folks say "Hey somebody said This guy with the old tank and old fish doesn't QT so why should I?", rather than understanding the process of conditioning a fish in QT to get them used to their new domestic life.

The Fenner thread was the misunderstanding of Bob's stance on not QTing some species. The misunderstanding was, a big fish needs a big tank, so putting a big fish in a little tank(qt) when it used to swim miles is stressful for the big fish so it gets sick, so putting the big fish in the big tank is probably better. The Op's understanding was........dont QT fish.:rolleyes:

I don't know the past and the politics, but have you ever thought of starting a thread or article called "Why You Should Quarantine! By PaulB"? I think it would shock the heck outta folks, be funny to me cause I like Irony, and maybe teach the new kids a thing about fish and the actual process of conditioning and how to keep a fish healthy. I still doubt folks will read to the end of the page, but if you dont use too many sentences, maybe the fish will live longer.
And ya, you may have to limit supermodel references:oops:.

I don't know it has to rant or a fight or a troll call, but I think its hard to have people fight when you are agreeing with them, it just takes time till they figure out they actually agree with you too..
And Fwiw, some others hereo_O, are TOTALLY misunderstood on their guidance in the QT methodology as well. Again, nobody reads.

Fish disease is still a mystery to me, and I read the threads quietly, trying to learn. I do see mistakes being made(even this newb can see), and sometimes I do chime in with support and encouragement. Disease is scary, and with the Walmart Brand fish supply line model and minimum wage interest level, best interest of the fish (and owners) is less important now and makes it even harder for new aquarists. In the Methodology thread, I mentioned I had figured out why a fish died. I now realised I also need to QT and condition for the SUPPLY CHAIN as well(human parasites if you will), my coris that died had been given bad, wrong, or unnecessary copper. I as the newb, didn't even consider that. Beautiful fish too. I didn't buy another fish for a year after that. So I do think there's a need for better understanding of what quarantine actually is meant to be.

Anyway, that's what was on my mind. Ill probably get fired from the squad now.

 

[Paul B]

Film, or Salty, the reason I posted this here on my thread that no one reads is because I don't like to argue and the last time I mentioned it, on two forums, that thread either got locked, or I got banned for it.
You are correct, people don't like to read. Where I posted this opinion I always get things like "I lost all my fish so now I will quarantine". Or "I was lucky for years then lost my fish so now I have to quarantine" Or the best, the Russian Roulette thing.
My fish had more ich than almost all the fish on this forum combined and I went through exactly what every one else is going through. I dealt with it for years and killed more fish than Star Kist Tuna. To the vast majority of people on these forums, this is new stuff. It's almost fifty years old!!!.
I had all those medications plus a bunch more. I was called to wholesalers and stores numerous times to cure their fish and I helped start three stores here in New York, one of them is still running and that was in the very early 70s. I even started a store with NSW. Two boats ago I had an 18' boat that I trailered. I filled it up with hundreds of gallons of NSW and trailered it to a store and pumped it into his tanks.
To me, this is old hat.
I make no money if people quarantine or not. I just want to see people enjoy this hobby and stop killing fish. The amount and variety of medications used is mind boggling and to me, there is no need. I have no medications and have not needed any in decades. I also have been doing this longer than anyone so I feel I have a " little" knowledge to share. No one has to listen and no one has to read my posts.
I am not trying to become famous, grow hair, win the lottery or become fish keeper of the year. I already have 2 aquarium related patents and a book.
This is but one of my many hobbies but I feel I have been successful at it. My method of getting fish immune is very easy for "many" but not all people. I realize people living in the mid west will have a problem getting the food I am advocating. I can't help that.
I really don't like getting yelled at (not on this forum) or have my threads locked for my ideas. I am to old for that. I am a Army Sargent combat Veteran and was a Construction electrical General foreman in Manhattan running multi million dollar jobs for forty years so I am not a Kid. That is the main reason I don't post on that big forum any more even though I have a lot of friends and a many years long thread there.
I also purposely don't go on Noob threads or offer advice to Noobs unless they PM me as many do. My ideas would not go over well there and I would get into arguments. Noob tanks are special and have different needs,
I like to have fun with the hobby because, well, it is a hobby and we are not curing cancer (I wish).
So, to end this rant, I am just trying to offer some advice to help people and fish from getting sick and dying. If I can do it, anyone can as I am not the God of fish. Only undergravel filters which I of course do advocate, but mostly quietly.

 

[Paul B]

See, that's why I posted that post here. No one reads it and it is safe. :D

 

[Chrisfish]

See, that's why I posted that post here. No one reads it and it is safe. :D

I did :p

 

[Annette Garcia]

That's not true Paul I read it. When I found your post I read it all and when I say all I mean all.

When I first got into the hobby and I was told to setup a QT. I was confused I didn't understand why they wanted me to put so much medicine. Everyone I talked to always said the same thing and I disagreed with them. I asked them so do you take all kinds of medicine just in case even if you're not sick, they said no. I decided to just do it my way. I have a 20g that when I get a new fish I put it in there and make sure there is nothing wrong with it, but I refuse to medicate them. I have a 125g DT and a 75g Seahorse tank that were all wild caught. And nothing has been medicated.

 

[MaiReef]

Love your dedication to your tank and our country. Your tank is just older than I am. I turn 40 next week.

 

[dbraun15]

Paul,

I have read your threads for years, just don't post much. I appreciate all the contributions you have made and continue to read your threads and smile. Continue doing what you have been doing as there are a lot of us who enjoy your wisdom and writings. Have a great and blessed day!

 

[Paul B]

That's great, but don't tell anyone that you read my threads. You may get flogged :eek:
Wow, I had no idea people read this stuff. That makes me very happy. MaiReef, Thank you I appreciate that, and I have socks older than you but I am very happy to see you here. :D
Thank you also dbraun15. You also have a blessed day. :)
Annette, we need all the Ladies we can get as it is mostly a Man's hobby for some reason. :rolleyes: Thank you for posting

Actually there are very nice people here and we don't have to agree. I have great respect for Humblefish and Melphyr but we have totally opposite ideas on this but neither of us is 100% right or wrong. There are instances when you should use either system, but they are hard to mix as a lot of people try to do.
If I lived in a place where I could not get what I perceive to be the correct food, I would have to change my practices, or leave the hobby.
Many people tell me I have controversial ideas, but I really don't. My ideas came about long before most people entered the hobby.
Lately researchers have been discovering much more about immune systems and we are thinking more about the body's ability to use it's immune system to keep itself healthy. When we try to short circuit that system our fish suffer. That's also what happens to us when we take antibiotics which is why many antibiotics are ineffective now and we have to keep discovering new ones. Of course sometimes we need them but they used to be given out for everything. When I was a kid in the fiftees and my Mother would call the doctor, he would have the needle in his hand as soon as he came in.
Yes, doctors used to make house calls and charge you $5.00 for it.
It all comes down to gut bacteria and we know what antibiotics do to bacteria. If we give a fish Prizapro or any number of things to kill either bacteria or parasites we are stunting the natural immune system so it can't do what it is supposed to do. I don't ever remember any of my fish having intestinal worms, but that is a big thing now. The immune system kills them also as long as we don't give medications that would destroy the immune system.
Now we are learning to allow our immune system to keep us healthy and it is very good at it.
Look at the disease forum right now, (I just did) So many fish are sick. Why is that? The hobby has been here for almost fifty years and yet there are just as many fish dying now as there was then. IMO there is no reason for it and it seems so simple. :cool:
In this thread that I started https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/I link to the research in this field as I being an electrician didn't come up with it myself. I am not that smart.
We should read what the people who get paid for this stuff write and not just the opinions of people who have been keeping fish for 5 or 6 years.
There is an enormous amount of research posted on this very subject. Just Google fishes immune system and you will see that I didn't make this up. :rolleyes:

 

[edinphilly]

I agree this is a great forum and a lot of good discourse over ideas vs the bashing on other forums.

There are so many people trying to sell so much garbage. Six years ago we moved from one suburb to another and it was far enough from our vet (2 dogs) we had to find a new vet. We went from an old school vet which apparently hardly exist in this area to having to go to these new "animal hospitals." Every visit is like sitting through a hard sell for them to test and treat everything under the sun.

For whatever reason this hobby seems to attract people who like to show off how much they've spent on their tank. It really doesn't need to be that expensive. You don't need to buy every new piece of equipment, medication, additive, etc. that comes out.

Those are some of the things I've taken away from "stealing" and tweaking (freezing my live black worms as live worms are forbidden in our fridge) your methods. And it has served me well. Like today when my bristletooth had spots all over one side of him I didn't rush to do or buy anything. I looked at him and realized he swam too close to the RBTA. I guess I'm a bad aquarium keeper but I'm not rushing out to buy Chanel moisturizer because he doesn't know how to avoid the nem.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

I'm not rushing out to buy Chanel moisturizer because he doesn't know how to avoid the nem

:D:p