Tank Transfer question

[JonasRoman]

Two questions for those of you who have been using TT a lot.

Question 1:
Actually, you should run 3 transfer, and the fourth will be down in display tank, so day 12. But some probably run "only" 2 transfers with good results. This makes sense, because since the parasite never sits longer than 7 days on the fish, it cannot possibly remain on the fish after already 2 transfers. The third is probably for safety's sake, but theoretically 2 should be enough...? Even if I understand 3 is more safe, I would just discuss strict theoretically if 2 shouldnt be enough?

There are 2 regimes.

Timeline:
A
Day 0-3.....transfer 1....day 3-6....transfer 2....day 6-9.....down in display tank

B
Day 0-3.....transfer 1....day 3-6....transfer 2....day 6-9....transfer 3....day 9-12.....down in display tank

Which regime are you using?

Question 2:
When you clean the tank that will receive the next transfer (you rarely have 3 aquariums), do you do it with acetic acid and hot water? Chlorine I know is ok, but I'm a little scared to not get rid of all the clorine residues. So will go for vinegar if ok. Thus, "polish" the inside with 12% vinegar and then rinse thoroughly with warm water. Ok?


Jonas

 

[christinna77]

Strictly talking about ich: No, 4 transfers/12 days is the absolute minimum to account for any outliers. And after that you should still observe the fish for at least 2 weeks in case of any failures, instead of transferring it immediately to the DT. That's way too risky.

 

[JonasRoman]

Strictly talking about ich: No, 4 transfers/12 days is the absolute minimum to account for any outliers. And after that you should still observe the fish for at least 2 weeks in case of any failures, instead of transferring it immediately to the DT. That's way too risky.

Sounds good. Got it. I will definitely continue the observation after the finished transfers.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Two questions for those of you who have been using TT a lot.

Question 1:
Actually, you should run 3 transfer, and the fourth will be down in display tank, so day 12. But some probably run "only" 2 transfers with good results. This makes sense, because since the parasite never sits longer than 7 days on the fish, it cannot possibly remain on the fish after already 2 transfers. The third is probably for safety's sake, but theoretically 2 should be enough...? Even if I understand 3 is more safe, I would just discuss strict theoretically if 2 shouldnt be enough?

There are 2 regimes.

Timeline:
A
Day 0-3.....transfer 1....day 3-6....transfer 2....day 6-9.....down in display tank

B
Day 0-3.....transfer 1....day 3-6....transfer 2....day 6-9....transfer 3....day 9-12.....down in display tank

Which regime are you using?

Question 2:
When you clean the tank that will receive the next transfer (you rarely have 3 aquariums), do you do it with acetic acid and hot water? Chlorine I know is ok, but I'm a little scared to not get rid of all the clorine residues. So will go for vinegar if ok. Thus, "polish" the inside with 12% vinegar and then rinse thoroughly with warm water. Ok?


Jonas

I suggest cleaning with Vinegar and water which is a safe form of acid and TTT can be stressful to many fish. If doing TTT, observe level of stress as you may have to resort to alternative method. Yu should have access to Copper Power which is a safe form of copper , dosed at 2.25 ppm also

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Two questions for those of you who have been using TT a lot.

Question 1:
Actually, you should run 3 transfer, and the fourth will be down in display tank, so day 12. But some probably run "only" 2 transfers with good results. This makes sense, because since the parasite never sits longer than 7 days on the fish, it cannot possibly remain on the fish after already 2 transfers. The third is probably for safety's sake, but theoretically 2 should be enough...? Even if I understand 3 is more safe, I would just discuss strict theoretically if 2 shouldnt be enough?

There are 2 regimes.

Timeline:
A
Day 0-3.....transfer 1....day 3-6....transfer 2....day 6-9.....down in display tank

B
Day 0-3.....transfer 1....day 3-6....transfer 2....day 6-9....transfer 3....day 9-12.....down in display tank

Which regime are you using?

Question 2:
When you clean the tank that will receive the next transfer (you rarely have 3 aquariums), do you do it with acetic acid and hot water? Chlorine I know is ok, but I'm a little scared to not get rid of all the clorine residues. So will go for vinegar if ok. Thus, "polish" the inside with 12% vinegar and then rinse thoroughly with warm water. Ok?


Jonas

Neither of those scenarios will control flukes on the fish, and that is a huge issue.

Vinegar is not a sufficient sterlizing agent for TTM, you need to use bleach, or have 3/4 individual tanks.

For reference to others reading this thread. I stopped using TTM back in the late 1980's because of its high failure rate at a public aquarium where we were using it. Here is a write-up that I did on the process:

“Tank chasing” method (Tank Transfer Method - TTM)

A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of the life cycle of the organism—moving the infected fish to a new aquarium at the point where the tomonts are produced, potentially breaking the life cycle. In real-world applications, multiple tank moves are required because, as mentioned above, the ich parasites are rarely in perfect synchronicity. This process can be physically damaging to fish, and ammonia levels can build up too high in the containers between transfers. In addition, the method does not control flukes and may not control Amyloodinium (velvet). “Hybrid TTM”, using the addition of hydrogen peroxide at two points in the process has been touted as a way around this deficiency. The trouble with that is that “dips” in general are rarely 100% effective for parasites, and fluke eggs will not be controlled at all.

There are also diseases that simply do not manifest themselves within the shortened timeline of TTM. You then risk introducing those diseases into your DT (display tank) due to the shortened time for the TTM over that of the more typical 40+ day quarantine methods. Some of those diseases are not treatable, but you definitely don't want them to get into your main aquarium.... Myxosporidians, viruses, etc. Remember, part of the reason to run a full quarantine on new fish is to protect your existing fish from any diseases they may be carrying.

Avoid using opaque buckets or bins for TTM. You need to have clear lateral viewing of new fish to screen them for other issues, like not eating well, fighting, etc. Remember that TTM is rather stressful, moving the fish like that, and with newly acquired fish, stress reduction is vital.

Another drawback to TTM is that it really only works for newly acquired fish. If you have an existing aquarium, and the fish develop ich, you can't remove them and use TTM because at the end of the run, you need a clean tank to house them and your DT will have been recently infected and will still be in its fallow period. Copper and hyposalinity require longer treatment periods, so you can't run them unless you have a stable treatment tank - and therefore, the fish can be housed in that tank until your display has run fallow long enough.

 

[W31Olds]

Wouldn't it be easier to wipe down/rinse the empty Aquarium/ Heater/ Airstone, etc. with say a Hose and then use Desiccation with a small Fan over using Vinegar or Bleach? The Tank is going to be empty anyway.

 

[JonasRoman]

I suggest cleaning with Vinegar and water which is a safe form of acid and TTT can be stressful to many fish. If doing TTT, observe level of stress as you may have to resort to alternative method. Yu should have access to Copper Power which is a safe form of copper , dosed at 2.25 ppm also

Thanks. Will go for vinegar then.
Yes, I have cupper as a second option if TT doesn't work of some reason.

 

[JonasRoman]

Neither of those scenarios will control flukes on the fish, and that is a huge issue.

Vinegar is not a sufficient sterlizing agent for TTM, you need to use bleach, or have 3/4 individual tanks.

For reference to others reading this thread. I stopped using TTM back in the late 1980's because of its high failure rate at a public aquarium where we were using it. Here is a write-up that I did on the process:

“Tank chasing” method (Tank Transfer Method - TTM)

A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of the life cycle of the organism—moving the infected fish to a new aquarium at the point where the tomonts are produced, potentially breaking the life cycle. In real-world applications, multiple tank moves are required because, as mentioned above, the ich parasites are rarely in perfect synchronicity. This process can be physically damaging to fish, and ammonia levels can build up too high in the containers between transfers. In addition, the method does not control flukes and may not control Amyloodinium (velvet). “Hybrid TTM”, using the addition of hydrogen peroxide at two points in the process has been touted as a way around this deficiency. The trouble with that is that “dips” in general are rarely 100% effective for parasites, and fluke eggs will not be controlled at all.

There are also diseases that simply do not manifest themselves within the shortened timeline of TTM. You then risk introducing those diseases into your DT (display tank) due to the shortened time for the TTM over that of the more typical 40+ day quarantine methods. Some of those diseases are not treatable, but you definitely don't want them to get into your main aquarium.... Myxosporidians, viruses, etc. Remember, part of the reason to run a full quarantine on new fish is to protect your existing fish from any diseases they may be carrying.

Avoid using opaque buckets or bins for TTM. You need to have clear lateral viewing of new fish to screen them for other issues, like not eating well, fighting, etc. Remember that TTM is rather stressful, moving the fish like that, and with newly acquired fish, stress reduction is vital.

Another drawback to TTM is that it really only works for newly acquired fish. If you have an existing aquarium, and the fish develop ich, you can't remove them and use TTM because at the end of the run, you need a clean tank to house them and your DT will have been recently infected and will still be in its fallow period. Copper and hyposalinity require longer treatment periods, so you can't run them unless you have a stable treatment tank - and therefore, the fish can be housed in that tank until your display has run fallow long enough.

Excellent answer. I am aware of that flukes is not covered. Thats why I combine with 2 formalinebath 6 days apart. (180 ppm, 40 min)

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Excellent answer. I am aware of that flukes is not covered. Thats why I combine with 2 formalinebath 6 days apart. (180 ppm, 40 min)

However, that will not kill Neobendenia fluke eggs, they are very tough.

 

[EricR]

I've used Humblefish HTTM (Hybrid Tank Transfer Method) several times with no issues but I've only used it prophylactically and never for treating any active parasitic infection (that I was aware of).

That basically follows your method "B" + 2x 30 minute 150 ppm H2O2 baths (spaced 6 days apart) + final observation recommended.

*not popular on this site and also I think any suggestions about potential effectiveness for treating flukes (w/H2O2 baths) are speculative, never presented as proven, so prazi or hyposalinity treatment usually still recommended for known fluke issues (I think)

 

[vetteguy53081]

Wouldn't it be easier to wipe down/rinse the empty Aquarium/ Heater/ Airstone, etc. with say a Hose and then use Desiccation with a small Fan over using Vinegar or Bleach? The Tank is going to be empty anyway.

That would be my approach and easier to accomplish