The Bacterial Infection Predicament

[Humblefish]

I think the most notable thing that comes out of it is: Fish in a stable tank with good husbandry will be resistant of disease. I think this holds true regardless of QT.

That is a sweeping generalization, lumping all "disease" into one category. Most healthy humans handle a cold virus just fine, but would be in a world of trouble if exposed to Malaria, Tuberculosis, Ebola, H5N1, meningitis, etc. Without prompt medical treatment.

The same can be said of ich & gram-positive bacterial infections (relatively mild) vs. velvet, brook, uronema, gram-negative bacterial infections (usually fatal without treatment).

 

[alanbetiger]

Get some Enrofloxacin!

 

[klp]

Many years ago I tried that. Just passive observation in QT, good nutrition, and I never treated with any chemicals unless I saw obvious symptoms of disease. My main DT was a 400 gallon with batfish, various angels & butterflies, and a show-sized Moorish Idol. All the MI really ate in the 5 years I had him was live blackworms, so that was a staple in both QT & DT. Everything was going great, until about 10 years in a Hurricane came which caused an extended power loss. (I didn't have a generator back then.) I was able to keep temp under control and the tank oxygenated using several battery powered air pumps, but it was at this time that I discovered my DT had latent ich. :( Secondary infections then started to break out, and I lost almost all of my fish. It was like this chain of events rapidly unfolding in front of my very eyes, but I was powerless to stop it. It was an emotionally devastating experience for me, as some of these fish were 10+ years old. I KNOW my fish would have probably lived if the tank didn't have ich, because other local hobbyists (who never saw ich during the entire ordeal) managed to save most of their fish despite operating under the same conditions. It was this experience, more than any other, which finally changed my mind about "ich management", and I decided to prophylactically treat in QT moving forward.

Wonderful insight on ich etc. as to what can happen and why if left untreated which I would not do (no guts so I get no glory). I appreciate your explanation a great deal as I had never thought of that and now understand your experience. However I was wondering only on the bacterial infection being cured by feeding only with live foods such as white/black worms if that had been tried in QT and is it effective. Thanks again on sharing your experience! An eye opener!!

 

[Humblefish]

However I was wondering only on the bacterial infection being cured by feeding only with live foods such as white/black worms if that had been tried in QT and is it effective.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly I would take a fish with a bacterial infection and only feed live white/blackworms? In order to boost the immune system to overcome the infection naturally. No meds? Unless of course the infection was secondary, and the fish needed copper/CP for ich or velvet.

I'm down to try almost anything, if I can: a) Learn something from it b) Find a new way to save fish lives.

 

[LEOreefer]

This is a great article. Quarantine is a weak subject for me and this certainly make its more clear. I will be setting up a QT for the first time with my new build and trying to get as much info as possible

 

[klp]

So, if I'm understanding you correctly I would take a fish with a bacterial infection and only feed live white/blackworms? In order to boost the immune system to overcome the infection naturally. No meds? Unless of course the infection was secondary, and the fish needed copper/CP for ich or velvet.

I'm down to try almost anything, if I can: a) Learn something from it b) Find a new way to save fish lives.

That is exactly what I mean. Judging from what Paul B says the trick is in the way he feeds his fish. He may feed other live food to enhance their immune system. If I understand his writings correctly it is all about live food to re-establish the proper bacteria in the gut to get/keep them healthy. Aside from that the nutrition in general from live foods he thinks is key to his success if I read him correctly.

As to it being a secondary infection I would like to know if it would still be a valid treatment for the bacterial infection while doing other treatments for the primary issues such as ich or velvet also. I know when the parasites drop off there can be issues with infections and wonder if his methods would work in all cases in QT. The only other thing that we might not duplicate in our QT is that he does not use a barebones QT tank but a natural looking habitat which reduces fish stress. Once again is the reduced stress level playing a key role in recovery and not only the live food? Probably a combination so I wonder if live food alone in a QT tank would duplicate his results.

 

[drawman]

As always a very well written and succinct article @Humblefish. I think you've been doing a wonderful service helping this community treat our fish friends and we all appreciate your time and efforts!

 

[melypr1985]

I wonder if live food alone in a QT tank would duplicate his results.

The simple answer is no. Feeding live foods and whole and healthy frozen foods is always going to be a good plan for your fish. Feeding them alone will not cure a gram negative bacterial infection for instance. The infection will likely kill the fish before you even realize it has one. You might say that these foods would prevent him getting one in the first place... but you'll have fish come in that die from this type of infection just days after receiving them. Or just a week or even a month. It would be worth testing this of course, but I seriously doubt anything short of a month of conditioning would help a fish develop any sort of "immunity" from it.

 

[klp]

The simple answer is no. Feeding live foods and whole and healthy frozen foods is always going to be a good plan for your fish. Feeding them alone will not cure a gram negative bacterial infection for instance. The infection will likely kill the fish before you even realize it has one. You might say that these foods would prevent him getting one in the first place... but you'll have fish come in that die from this type of infection just days after receiving them. Or just a week or even a month. It would be worth testing this of course, but I seriously doubt anything short of a month of conditioning would help a fish develop any sort of "immunity" from it.

I would like to it tested in all scenarios from your gram negative example to ich and velvet treatments as a preventative. I mean feeding live food as Paul B does from day one of treatment. We have one example of it working with Paul B so we know it can be done. What we do not know is it repeatable in a QT tank, in what scenarios and with which foods or combinations of foods. I respect your expertise in the treatment of fish diseases and am just posing what ifs not challenging your experience or expertise.

 

[Brew12]

I would like to it tested in all scenarios from your gram negative example to ich and velvet treatments as a preventative. I mean feeding live food as Paul B does from day one of treatment. We have one example of it working with Paul B so we know it can be done. What we do not know is it repeatable in a QT tank, in what scenarios and with which foods or combinations of foods. I respect your expertise in the treatment of fish diseases and am just posing what ifs not challenging your experience or expertise.

What you are suggesting isn't anything like what Paul B does. He takes sick fish and adds them to his DT, not a QT. This gives him a few advantages, especially when it comes to parasites. I'm not sure exactly how much impact his reverse flow UG filter has, but it may do something. He does run Ozone in his skimmer which will help keep parasite number down. His immune fish will act as decoys to parasites to further reduce the parasite load in his tank.
Finally, people often misread what Paul says about his tank. He doesn't say that he takes sick fish, dumps them in his tank, and they always live. What he does say is that if they live through the initial infestation that they live to old age.

 

[klp]

What you are suggesting isn't anything like what Paul B does. He takes sick fish and adds them to his DT, not a QT. This gives him a few advantages, especially when it comes to parasites. I'm not sure exactly how much impact his reverse flow UG filter has, but it may do something. He does run Ozone in his skimmer which will help keep parasite number down. His immune fish will act as decoys to parasites to further reduce the parasite load in his tank.
Finally, people often misread what Paul says about his tank. He doesn't say that he takes sick fish, dumps them in his tank, and they always live. What he does say is that if they live through the initial infestation that they live to old age.

I s not talking about curing the parasite infections themselves in QT just the bacterial infection that can accompany them or a bacterial infection alone. Maybe a comment from Paul B if he is available would help. If you read my comments you will understand I know he uses his DT and not a QT. I understand losses can happen with any protocol. I am just curious how repeatable his methods would be in a QT tank on bacterial infections NOT on a parasite cure in a variety of scenarios. If he turns the fish loose with parasites and he gets no secondary bacterial infection then his method seems to work in that regard. Hope that clarifies my questioning.

 

[klp]

bacterial infections in a variety of scenarios

 

[Dizzirn]

Thank you @Humblefish
As I am beginning my 125g new build, I purchased today a 20g at the $1/gal sale to have a QT/HT.

 

[4FordFamily]

So so few people "succeed" with what Paul suggests... but I understand the arrractiveness of what he implies -- it's appears to be far less work and easier. I get it. Unfortunately, I see the aftermath of the preponderance of those that attempt his "method" on the disease forum every day.

There's a lot of moving parts that are not easily duplicated. In addition, he doesn't keep tangs or any disease-prone fish. Reasoning aside, this should not be overlooked.

 

[Michael Green]

transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank at least 10 feet away from the QT

Why 10 feet away? You say at least 10 feet which means it can't be any closer but can be further.
When you transfer, do you take fish out of medicated tank with a net, run 10 feet to the non-medicated tank and just drop them in? No acclimation period?

 

[Fishfinder]

Should be no acclimation needed. Same salt, same SG, same temp, dump them in

 

[maroun.c]

Excellent write up @Humblefish.
As for feeding and a healthy tank to boost the immunity of fish, this takes weeks/months a luxury fish don't have when facing velvet.
My fish were extremely healthy and well fed quality foods soaked on vitamins and some had been with me for 7-10 yrs when I got velvet out of the blues. That only helped most fish fight the disease up to 3 weeks Vs the typical 48 Hrs kill time yet most of my fish still died except for wrasses and couple tangs.
@Humblefish can u please elaborate on antibiotics dosing and what alternatives(human antibiotics) to use if fish specific vitamins ain't available.
Also have u faced issues with killing filter bacteria by the antibiotics and ammonia spikes?

 

[Michael Green]

Why 10 feet apart? I don't understand the distance factor between QT.

 

[Brew12]

Why 10 feet apart? I don't understand the distance factor between QT.

It has been documented that marine parasites can be transmitted tank to tank via aerosol at distances of up to 10 feet. While it is very unlikely to happen it is possible.

 

[Humblefish]

It has been documented that marine parasites can be transmitted tank to tank via aerosol at distances of up to 10 feet. While it is very unlikely to happen it is possible.

+1 More info on aerosol transmission: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/